Episode 2: Asian American and Pacific Islander narratives, with Jaimie Woo
Here, you can listen to the podcast, read the transcript, and find resources related about narrative change as well as how to support the AAPI community
Listen to the podcast here:
Check out Jaimie’s podcast here:
Narrative change resources about Asian Americans:
Narrative change articles about Asian Americans:
How Hollywood is Complicit in the Violence Against Asian Americans
The Stories We Tell, and Don’t Tell, About Asian-American Lives
Narrative change resources about immigration:
Immigrants and Immigration: A Guide for Entertainment Professionals
How Immigrant Representation on TV Moves Audiences to Action
Donation resources:
Read the transcript here:
Jaimie Woo: [00:00:03] I was taking on the dominant narrative. I was approaching my community from the dominant narrative that I'm only worthy as my, you know, sexualization or the test scores that I can produce. And so, yeah, I think I mean, it's just it's, at the end of the day, a lot of these jokes, the small slights, the dehumanization of of Asian women, the objectification of Asian women seem harmless perhaps in the moment. And just like, oh, it's just a joke or, you know, et cetera. But they are what ultimately lead to what we saw in Atlanta. Right. If we let those fester and we let that take place, that's the result.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:00:55] You're listening to The Other Story, a podcast about the stories we lived by. Each episode we'll examine a dominant narrative in our society and ask how it came to be, how it might be changed, and the role the entertainment industry has played in reinforcing or deconstructing it. I'm your host, Jennifer Gottesfeld. The anti-Asian hate that we are witnessing across America is finally casting a light on what has actually been a long legacy of bigotry and racism against Asians, Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders - from the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882 to the Japanese internment camps during World War two to President Trump calling covid the Chinese flu - this shameful and often obfuscated and ignored history is finally beginning to be reckoned with. Today, we're going to be talking with Jaimie Woo to better understand the narratives in society contributing to and driving this hate, what people are doing to rewrite those narratives and the role that Hollywood has played in that story. Jaimie is an Emmy-nominated creative producer, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion advocate and New York Times best selling co-author of Yes She Can. She currently works as a development producer for CultureHouse, a woman and POC led production company, and as a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion facilitator for ReadySet Consulting. Jaimie previously worked at the Obama White House for then Vice President Joe Biden on gender violence prevention policy and later served as a communications director in the U.S. House of Representatives. Jaimie is the proud daughter of Chinese immigrants, a graduate of Duke University and the creator of the awesome podcast that you should definitely check out. Are you there, Universe?
[00:02:47] JG: Hi, Jaimie. Thank you so much for joining me today.
[00:02:50] JW: Hi, Jenn. Thanks so much for having me. What a fabulous introduction and so glad to be here and talk about some really important issues.
[00:02:59] JG: Thank you. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. It's essential. I feel like it's a really important conversation to be thinking about right now. And actually that's where I want to start, is really grounding us and understanding the context that we are finding ourselves in and understanding some of those persistent, dominant narratives around Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders, where they came from and how they've influenced the way the communities are treated.
[00:03:29] JW: Yeah. Well, I'm really grateful that you named a couple of really critical points in history. The Chinese Exclusion Act and the late eighteen hundreds that only got repealed like in the 1940s. Right. Like that, that took place for 60 years and essentially was kind of in the midst of a lot of Asian laborers coming to America to help build the railroads that we actually now heavily rely on, but were quote unquote, like, you know, taking the jobs away from Americans that were here currently. And by Americans, I mean white people. Right. And so this creation of kind of the perpetual foreigner of, you know, you can be here, you can work for us as long as we have control over what you do. But but anything outside of that, we're not going to allow you to be here. Right. And so I think that thread, that narrative of that perpetual foreigner, even through the Japanese internment camps in World War Two, where these were American citizens, you know, these were folks who were born here who had even enlisted in the military for World War Two. And yet their families, their siblings, their mothers and fathers who are contributing to American society were still distrusted and sent away into these internment camps that, you know, as a Chinese American, as someone who's Asian and should know her history, I don't remember learning anything about that, like in my middle school high school years.
[00:05:10] JW (con't): I mean, I recently watched this was a few months ago, I guess, when it first came out. PBS has this amazing five part documentary series called Asian-Americans, and it kind of goes through. The history that has been so invisibilized over the last, you know, century and I was blown away by the stories that I heard that just have never surfaced to the mainstream. Right. And so when we talk about dominant narratives, we talk about stereotypes. We talk about the invisibilization of Asian-Americans, the kind of shy, reserved, modest personality, and that kind of almost facilitating the model minority stereotype. Right. Which is, oh, you know what, you are the minority that has actually been able to, you know, pick themselves up by their bootstraps and, you know, rise to the occasion and, you know, achieve greatness. Right. So in the 1950s, we were kind of known as this model minority, and that has really threaded throughout history. But what has happened as a result of that is really pitting us against other marginalized groups and really, again, invisibilizing the pain and the trauma that we still were going under, we were still were experiencing despite this kind of like quote unquote model minority status. And so, you know, I think so often the API community.
[00:06:49] JW (con't): We tend to put our heads down because we recognize that we don't have it the worst, right? Our black brothers and sisters, the black and African-American community, are literally getting murdered every single day by the state, by the hands of the police. And so, you know, the dehumanization, the jokes and the stereotypes, you know, we're like, OK, we can we can swallow that. We can we can take that because other people have it worse. But now what I think is come to light is, no, that's not the case because those types of kind of subtle forms of violence can actually become really traumatic physical forms of violence, just as we saw in Atlanta. And so now re-linking arms with our fellow advocates and activists across, you know, various marginalized communities is just essentially doing what we have always done in history. Right. And that is being in solidarity with one another and all working together to dismantle this white supremacist framework that we're all victims of. Right. So anyways, that's a lot to start with. But, gosh, I just have so much to talk about. I feel like I just answered everything I want to say and not one question. But, you know, anyways, that's there's so much to think about and really sift through in terms of like what those dominant narratives are.
[00:08:14] JG: Yeah, I mean, everything is really helpful in setting the context of understanding how we got to this point now, which I think in order to dismantle what is, we need to understand how it came to be right before we can actually create something new. I'm curious if we could dig into a little bit more how that model minority narrative came to be and how you see it played out in society today in terms of people's experience, or perhaps your own, if you're willing.
[00:08:50] JW: Yeah, I mean, for sure. I think, with regards to its historical narrative, I think, again, this was at a time when, so and, actually I will credit this documentary Asian-Americans, because they talked about, I think in the 50s, they had this thing called the American Mother of the Year, which is very strange. And I'm like, oh, great. And so obviously, it's like it upholds a lot of, like, gender stereotypes, like you work at home, you take care of your kids, et cetera. And in, I think the early 1950s, this was, you know, a really tumultuous time coming out of World War Two after the Japanese internment camps, et cetera. A Chinese immigrant mother was awarded this American Mother of the Year. She was a widow. Her husband, her late husband fought in World War Two and was a veteran. And she had eight children and some of who went to Stanford and MIT or who became entrepreneurs or and and she worked at a laundromat. Right. She worked at her late husband's laundromat. And this was kind of like the the the pinnacle of American success, where I like this mother who's working really hard. And she raised these kids to be, you know, the pinnacles of success in America. And that was this one example that the media turned to in and in basically created this framework of, wow.
[00:10:23] JW: So you look at Asians, they're doing so great. They're working really hard, et cetera, without really recognizing all of the major issues and massive wealth gap that was taking place where you have these some of these really amazing entrepreneurs and trailblazers. But then you have these Vietnamese and Korean refugees that were working in such horrid conditions and manufacturing plants, right, that were being paid like a dollar an hour or whatever the equivalent is back then, and rather than thinking about the community and all the the struggles that they were really experiencing, they just really, you know, shed a light on, oh, this is what you can this is what all you other minorities should aspire to be like, aspire to be like this American mother of the year. Right. And I think what happens now is, you know, this expectation that we are going to be great, right. That I am going to be a straight-A student, I'm going to be good at math and all this stuff that really actually holds us back. Right. Because when we don't meet those expectations, we feel a lot of guilt, a lot of shame, a lot of kind of like we're unworthy. Right. Because we didn't satisfy this really high level, or unattainable level, of perfection and then what that also does is it creates this false narrative that, like, we are better than everyone else and that's absolutely not the case. Right. And in doing so, it really stirred up a lot of tensions between Asian-Americans and other minorities, specifically the Black community, and that essentially is the manifestation of, that really was in the Rodney King riots in the 90s here in L.A. and Koreatown. And so, I mean, the model minority stereotype, it just it's so harmful, but it seems so it doesn't seem so right. Like and the way I put it is, people will say, oh, well, you know, these are positive stereotypes, right, these and actually you can expand that to micro aggressions. So the way I define microaggressions is that someone is who is committing a microaggression oftentimes means, well, they're trying to perhaps compliment you. When you call a Black person articulate, they're like, oh, yeah, that's that's a compliment, right? I'm complimenting you. Or when they say, Jaimie, you must be good at math. Right. Like, that's that's meant to be a compliment. But what actually happens is you're you're reminding this person of how different they are from you and that the standard for which that they live is not what you're saying. So if you're calling me articulate, or if you're calling a Black person articulate, the standard is that, or the expectation is that person shouldn't be that way. Right. Or , you know, these types of microaggressions essentially is reminding how much of an other that person is. And so I think the model minority stereotype falls into that same camp of like we are different from you. We, you know, we must be these X, Y, Z things in order to play at the level that you are. And I mean, I experience that so much as a kid. Right. And and that's reinforced in my family, too. Like, we have to do better. We have to try and. Be two times, five times, ten times better in order to even just get it in the room, right, let alone a seat at the table. Right. Like, you know, and they say that a lot about about women of color in these really high powered spaces, that they have to work way harder just to show up. And that's kind of the pressure that we have on ourselves because of this really harmful narrative about the model minority stereotype. Yeah.
[00:14:28] JG: It's I'm glad that you brought up women in particular, I think something that the murders in Atlanta really shined a light on was the hyper-sexualization of Asian women and how how that's been perpetuated in the media. And so I would love to talk to that narrative as well, because I think we're seeing that really come to the surface now in a way that I think a lot of people were not aware of until now.
[00:15:02] JW: Yeah, yeah. I think that the key thing here is that you can't separate all of the various identities that make up who we are, right, like you can't separate my Asian-ness from my female-ness. It just I am an Asian female. I'm an Asian-American female. That's who I am. It's impossible to figure out, OK, did this thing happen because she's a woman or did this thing happen because she's Asian? And I think this is, you know, a really critical time to look at it more holistically and more intersectionality. And I think finally folks are doing that. And I mean, speaking from personal experience, my God, I'm like my college years of going to bars and clubs or whatever field of like, oh, you know, the hot Asian and you're so you're so pretty for an Asian and you're you know, it's just and walking into these pretty predominantly white spaces and even seeing other Asian women and kind of looking them up and down. Right. Like I admit to that, and it's something I'm really ashamed of. But it's this kind of competition type feeling where, like, we there can only be one person in this space, so it can only be one Asian woman, the hot Asian right in this space, or the sexy Asian or the or the exotic, you know, unidentified, vague minority, one million.
[00:16:27] JW (con't): And that was so harmful. I mean, then that's really what drove so much so much of a wedge between within these communities. Right. And, you know, one of the the sticking points to that, I think coming out of all of this atrocity in Atlanta is how much were these women even accepted within our Asian community? Um, you know, even within the community, there is so much judgment, shame, division, and just by virtue of their of their occupation. Right. Like how much of those women were looked down upon by people of my my parents generation or people who were really buying into the model minority stereotype? Right. And so I think that is also something I've been really toying with, too. You know, I've just personally and, you know, I think as I was when I was younger, I mean, I wanted to be white. I thought, oh, would my life be so much easier, wouldn't my parents be so much less strict because they have less pressure on them to succeed? You know, when all these things and I think all of this over the last year, these last few months has just reminded me of those painful thoughts and memories that I you know, I think in the last decade, 15 years of my life have been far more obviously way less present.
[00:17:59] JW (con't): Like, I don't feel that way at all anymore. But, gosh, it took me so long to get over that kind of self-loathing in a way, because I was taking on the dominant narrative. I was approaching my community from the dominant narrative that I'm only worthy as my, you know, sexualization or the test scores that I can produce. And so, yeah, I think I mean, it's just, at the end of the day, a lot of these jokes, the the small slights, the dehumanization of of Asian women, the objectification of Asian women seem harmless perhaps in the moment. And just like, oh, it's just a joke or, you know, et cetera. But they are what ultimately lead to what we saw in Atlanta. Right. If we let those fester and we let that take place. That's the result. That was the physical manifestation of a joke about, you know, an Asian prostitute or something like that. And so, yeah, very clearly we've seen that.
[00:19:09] JG: Hollywood has definitely played a role in perpetuating that stereotype, as well as a model minority and many of the other dominant narratives. And I'm curious how you've seen Hollywood's role in that. In perpetuating those narratives and what's what that's looked like historically,
[00:19:30] JW: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I feel like only recently have we really become. More fully fleshed, multidimensional human beings in Hollywood, right? I mean, Hollywood film and television have just this incredible power to shape our our culture, to shape our opinions, our viewpoints, our narratives about the world, about everything from politics to economy to academia to just just personality, etc.. And I mean, you think about all of the roles that Asians have played in in media. And it's you know, it's the like computer science nerd. It's it's the kung fu master. It's the evil villain. I mean, the number of times like, Lucy Liu has either been a sexy kung fu person or a villain or or just this kind of prude like you like Lotus Blossom figure. You know, it's it's super one dimensional. And they talk about this a little bit in Asian-Americans. But Anna Wong was one of the first Asian-American stars in television or film, actually, and this was in the 1920s. And she was constantly, constantly, constantly casted as like the villain. Right. Like this kind of dragon lady villain or the like, you know, quote unquote, Lotus Blossom, the like, very, you know, Virgin-esque, you know, kind of exotic woman. And there was this I think this kind of need or desire for more different stories at the time, and I think I don't remember what year it came out, but The Good Earth was a film that came out a little after she rose to to prominence, and it featured the story of of Asian-Americans. It was like a couple like, they are in America. And and she was so excited, like, oh, I'm finally going to be like the lead in something and be the protagonist. And they still, in an Asian inspired movie, hired two white people to play the couple, and she was the dragon lady. It's just like even in a story about me. And I think that that thread has existed to this day. Right. And only recently have we kind of moved away from, like, the submissive kind of like sex object person into more multidimensional stories from like The Farewell to Minari to I mean, you know, even things like Crazy Rich Asians, which, you know, I do have some criticisms of, but still just the fact that there is an all Asian cast on television and, you know, thousands of theaters worldwide is so exciting, you know, and so I think I think we're getting there, but there's so much more to do. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, the the goal is to elevate Asian creatives and to explore more multidimensional stories that are not just like, limited to a woman's sexuality or, you know, a woman's villain capabilities, et cetera, you know?
[00:23:00] JG: We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll start looking forward and how to deconstruct these narratives.
[00:23:08] BREAK
[00:23:09] JG: So now that we understand a little bit of the context and history that we're dealing with looking forward, which you already started to allude to with things like Minari, so what is deconstructing these narratives look like and what work is being done to shift them right now?
[00:23:31] JW: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a kind of building off of what I said earlier, elevating Asian creatives. I think there is this and this exists for practically all communities who are marginalized, whether you're a Black creative, Native American creative, whether you're, you know, identify with the LGBTQ community, there is a sense that you need to kind of and as I alluded to this earlier, like prove yourself again in order to get a seat at the table. Right. And we call this actually, in the work that I do, we call this prove-it-again bias whereby, you know, say you're hiring for a position and you have let's just use an example of a white male and an Asian woman who are applying for the same role. Someone who isn't aware of their biases might ask this Asian woman to to perform some sort of extra test. Right. In order to qualify herself for this role. But, oh, this white guy, you know what they're qualifications actually look fine, even though they basically have identical qualifications. Right. And so there is this extra need to to prove themselves even more just to be on equal footing with the dominant, dominant identity. And I think that exists for Asian creatives. Right. Like, oh, I need to go to I need to have this many credits in order to, like, get it to the seat at the table. I need to have done this many fellowships and, you know, from Disney to NBC to all these other things in order to even get into the writers room. Right. And so I think there needs to be more equity in that space of recognizing where our biases really play a role in hiring and elevating and promoting creatives, whether you're a writer or whether you're a director, producer, et cetera.
[00:25:32] JW (con't): And then also on the back end, right? Like we need more Asian-American representation in development in the executive spaces that are making those decisions, that are in business development, that are green lighting projects and have the the financial say. And so it's not just creatives, it's everybody in the business, the right. It needs to reflect America and reflect the multitude of stories that we see and experience every day. Oh, yeah. I think it's a little bit too about just I mean. What we're seeing now is is giving me a lot of hope, you know, with the recent wins, with Minari and Nomadland, with Chloe Zhao and Parasite, you know, I don't even know when that what was that two years ago? One year ago? Time, at this point. But like, you know, like they exist. They're there. They're out there. Right. It's just about are we placing value on them and are we are we creating space for them to thrive here in America? So, yeah, I mean, that's and that's part of the work that I do. Right? I work at CultureHouse. I'm really excited to elevate underrepresented stories and and voices and specifically within the AAPI community. And in my work as a DEI consultant, we talk about these biases, right, with all sectors from tech to academia to health care, et cetera. And, you know, Hollywood doesn't work in a vacuum. It works within a community, a society that includes Wall Street, that includes health care institutions, that includes major political entities. So, you know, it's not just Hollywood that needs to evolve, but it has to work in partnership with all these other sectors that are intersecting with it.
[00:27:25] JG: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And then at the same time, it also can do harm by continuing to put out stories with the dominant narratives or by continuing to invisibility Asians and not include them in the storytelling. And so there's like a big responsibility, at least in my opinion, that Hollywood holds in the choices that it makes right now. Yeah, I'm curious who you're seeing that you feel is getting it right or is on the path where you're like, yeah, I see them working towards something that feels good.
[00:28:10] JW: Yeah, oh, that's a good question, I mean. I do think so, and this especially happened to in the aftermath of the George Floyd protests, but you have the companies and people who are talking the talk right there, putting out their statements and they're, you know, oh, this is like we care about this now, you know, and then you have the companies and people who are actually walking the walk and are actually investing and are actually, you know, making doing the hard decision making of making critical, sustainable structural change within their entities or companies, et cetera. And, you know, to be honest, time will tell a little like I still haven't, I still don't know, right, because there's still so much of the, like, initial shock, at least with with regards to Atlanta, I'm seeing some really great. And seeing some really great progress coming on like, you know, with regard to Black Lives Matter, but I think. This because Asians and the AAPI community have been invisible for so long that. It's really requiring folks to, like, open their eyes, right, and it's, I think it's taking a little bit it's going to take some time for us to really, like, understand the complexities of all of our stories and of our histories and a record. I mean, from the onset, it just requires education. Right. Like all of the history that we talked about today. I mean, that's something that every American and every Asian-American should know. But then beyond that, I think it's also and this isn't really answering your question, but this is this is getting at just a little bit of the complexities of our identities.
[00:30:03] JW (con't): And I can just share like a really quick anecdote anecdote here. When I was in high school, I was perpetually bullied by a couple of high school guys and they were, you know, is the kind of bullying where I laughed along, because I just didn't know what else to do that, you know, I wasn't, we would kind of call each other friends, I suppose, but like, they still, you know, like literally pull their eyes back into the squinty eyes and like, you know, or they would say my name in a Chinese accent imitating my mom. Right. And I would just be like, oh, ha ha ha. You know, because that was my defense mechanism. I just wanted to lay low and not, you know, rock the boat. And one of these, interestingly, is now like this hot shot TV star Netflix shows. And we we got lunch just maybe a few years ago and. I had brought up kind of you know, how he treated me a little bit in high school and he said, Jaimie, you know, that was I was just joking, you know, like I love you, man. Like, it was great. It was all in good fun, you know, I didn't mean I wasn't, you know, serious. And Jaimie, I'm half Asian. I'm half Japanese. And I'm like, you're Asian? I had no idea. He presents very white. And I just was like, why? It's like you're you're half Asian. That's even worse. Like, you know, there is this moment of like, well, first of all, you're not apologizing. Second of all, you know, it being a joke is not an excuse. You being Asian is also not excuse. And I harbored a lot of resentment for this person for a while. And it wasn't until these shootings and kind of the resurfacing of so many emotions from my childhood that I realized, oh, this person was experiencing shame. Right. And his way of manifesting that shame was lashing out at other Asian people so that he could separate himself from that identity to keep him safe, which is what I did, too. I mean, and so now I'm holding these very contradictory feelings of like resentment, but also empathy, because now I'm like, oh, I get it. Like, he was 16. I mean, and and we're all different. And maybe he still felt that way three years ago when we got lunch. And so I think these are examples of the super complex emotions that Asian-Americans have felt living in this country of wanting to do good by their country and wanting to fit in, but then also feeling pride and who they are and and not wanting to give up their cultural traditions and identity and. Yeah, I mean, that's all they say, that, like Hollywood can't paint us in this, you know, very mono faceted, I don't even know if it's a word just making it up, but it's like one dimensional way. Right. And I think it requires a lot of conversations, a lot of like actually connecting with AAPI people from all backgrounds, you know, whether you're a Vietnamese, Korean, Chinese, Laotian, et cetera.
[00:33:21] JG: You know, I'm glad that you brought that up, this is actually something that I've been really curious about that I haven't been able to find much online and and this is definitely an ignorant question, but one of the things that I'm noticing as you were naming those multi-dimensional Asian identities, AAPI to to me sounds really reductive because it's so like, these crimes are also happening against Asians who aren't American, per say, I mean, and so I'm just curious, because I believe language matters, I imagine that you do as well. Just it's something that I've been curious about and like wondering as I've been doing this, you know, more research and reading and trying to make sure that I have a full, or not a full, but at least a better understanding, it will never be full, I'm just I'm curious your thoughts on that.
[00:34:25] JW: Yeah, it's a great question. And I'm so glad you brought that up, because so often we are seen as a monolith. Right. As kind of just this blanketed Asian Americans or Asians. Right. And even to our to your point, like calling folks who are not American, Asian-Americans or vice versa. You know, I think I mean, it's tough. It's like for me, when folks ask me how I identify, I say Asian-American. Well, OK, it's it's kind of twofold, I tend to identify as Asian American because from my vantage point, my experiences as being who I am in this country are very relatable to some of the other. Folks who look like me in this country, right, and that's within my vantage point, right, my socioeconomic status, my geography, my education level, et cetera. And so for me, I feel that sense of solidarity and community with other Asian people in this country, regardless of where they come from, because how folks have viewed us is pretty monolithically right. Like if you look Asian, you are going to be treated as such, regardless of whether you're from Vietnam or Korea, etc. in this country, right. That is a perfect example of what happened to Vincent Chin, who was brutally murdered because he was mistaken, his ethnicity was mistaken and he was Asian. I mean, at the end of the day, he was Asian, but, you know, that is kind of how we are seen, and so that is, I think, how I have identified because of that dominant narrative, I would love to dig into that more. I would love to kind of, you know, examine and explore and use our language to reflect that, to better understand and identify folks who are from Vietnam or from China, who are from Taiwan, et cetera. It's just. And I will say too, you know, this is all jumbled in my head, but, I think that point of how we are seen so massively affects how we see ourselves. And so I'm just repeating myself, I'm trying to internalize actually what I'm saying. So the point I'm trying to make is because so many Asians are seen as just simply Asian-American, it's just how we see ourselves. Right. My connection to my Chinese ancestry is not as strong here because I'm so disconnected from that and so far away from that.
[00:37:42] JW (com't): And so the thing that connects me to my Korean American friends is the fact that we are Asian, right, in this time, in this space, probably wouldn't be the case 50 years ago during World War Two. But in this time, in this space, that's how I feel. And and I think there's a lot of pride, you know, shared pride in that sense. But the more and more I think we actually explore these stories, especially using Hollywood as a tool to do that and television and film as a as a platform to do that, we'll actually get to dig into some of the more specific multicultural and, you know, stories that make up Vietnamese Americans and make up Korean Americans, et cetera. The fact that I lived in Koreatown when I first moved to L.A. and did not know anything about the riots that took place in the 90s, I mean, that's just like that has to change, right? Like those the types of stories that are specific to the Korean American community that I should know, especially as an as a resident here in Los Angeles. So I don't know if that answered your question really a really round about way.
[00:38:54] JG: I really, no, I really appreciated it. Something that, like, I wanted to understand better. And I feel like that definitely sheds some light on that.
[00:39:03] JW: Ya, thank you for asking, ya.
[00:39:05] JG: Yeah, I wanted to go back to Hollywood for a second, since you brought that up at the end. What do you want to hold Hollywood accountable for? Like as we're looking into the future as part of the work that you're doing as a movement leader in trying to bring new narratives, introduce new storytellers, what are what are your hopes and visions for the future? What are you working toward now?
[00:39:31] JW: I think aside from just elevating creatives, AAPI creatives, as well as executives and business folks on the backend and on, you know, off camera. I think it's being more intentional about the stories that have nothing to do with what it means to be Asian, right. So I think the romcom series To All the Boys I Loved Before such a great series and, you know, as a book series written by, I think Jenny Han, and that portrayed a young Asian woman as the lead role, you know, romantic interest. Right. And I think I've actually I haven't watched the last film, but it doesn't. You know, the premise of the of the book and of the series isn't specifically about her Asian-ness, right? She just is the romantic lead. And I think that is just as important. Right? Yes, our stories matter. But, you know, where are the spaces in kind of like in the stories that we tell where we can feature, you know, an Asian superhero. Right. That's just, that's who it is. Right. Because that reflects America. And, you know, stories like Minari are so beautiful. But what's the other counterbalance to that? Right. Like, where can we find and elevate Chinese identity, Asian identity, AAPI identity in the narratives that aren't specifically about our communities. And that's just like normalizing who we see on screen, you know, and who we see as attractive and who we see as talented. So that's one hope. I think another hope is one of the things that CultureHouse does. We have a consultancy within our production company called Green House, and we provide a lot of services with regards to like scripts, sensitivity checks and, you know, wanting to tell really accurate portrayals about a specific issue, policy, identity, et cetera. And so I think, putting in the work to do that is also important, and that requires a few extra steps, that requires more investments and financing, but doing that kind of, double check, triple check, talking to the experts, talking to the people that, you know, are mentioned in these types of stories is really important. And then finally, I think there is a real need to vocalize and visualize the solidarity between the Black community and the Asian American community and Asian communities in the United States. I think the media has and, you know, political figures over the last century have done a really good job at kind of creating this false narrative that we are, you know, against one another and we're trying to take each other down. And I think enough like enough of that. You know, that's not true. It's actually the civil rights movement, you know, was hand in hand. We walked hand in hand. I mean, even just the the DREAM Act was started off being a huge coalition of Latinx, African-American, Black, AAPI communities coming together and saying this is, you know, we are the next generation of America. And I think illustrating that through storytelling, through just the dominant media narrative is so important at this time that when one community rises, we all rise. And so, yeah, that's, I think, some key areas that would be really, really helpful to go do it. If you're listening out there in Hollywood, go do it.
[00:43:47] JG: Well, actually, go into your second point about authenticity, making sure that both voices are included in the creation, but also that things are double and triple checked. Are there any resources that you like or that you go to that might be helpful for anyone listening to to check?
[00:44:09] Yeah, I mean, well, like I said, CultureHouse does that. And depending on what you're looking for, I mean, Gold House is a really great collective of AAPI storytellers and entrepreneurs that elevate those stories and also have a really great kind of resource bank, CAPE, which is the Coalition of Asian Pacifics in Entertainment. They have lists of creatives, of experts, of policymakers, of all sorts that can serve as resources as well. And they have been a tremendous network in Hollywood. Time's Up is another one. I'm part of the AAPI affinity group called A Plus, and they do a lot of really great programming just for Asians and entertainment, specifically Asian women and yeah, and for others. I mean, like I had got introduced to Define American, which is a nonprofit that has an entire like entertainment, cultural entertainment arm where they advise shows on storylines related to immigration and to kind of this definition of American right. And so specifically looking at folks who may not have citizenship or might be undocumented, et cetera, and so are are providing a lot of expertise and knowledge in that space.
[00:45:45] JG: So to to wrap up our conversation, and you got to a few of these things a little bit, but just want to be really intentional. So, for the individuals listening to the podcast, whether they're entertainment or creatives or not, what are some things that folks can do to help to deconstruct these dominant narratives, even just like, be able to notice? I think, in order to deconstruct, you know, these goggles that we have on, we need to be able to notice that they're there. And so if you have any suggestions in terms of that type of work and starting the work.
[00:46:23] JW: Yeah, well, I mentioned earlier, I think education is a huge part, just being able to contextualize your conversations with friends or family or etc. So knowing what the Chinese Exclusion Act is, knowing that it exists, knowing that we put Japanese Americans in internment camps, knowing what happened to Vincent Chin and and the the horrors of, you know, the riots that took place in Los Angeles. And I think those are some really great starting places, I think also, you know, holding space for our Asian friends by by just asking them and talking to them about their histories, right, and I think there's a time and place to do that, right. I think immediately following a horrific tragedy as what happened in Atlanta probably isn't the best time to ask somebody, you know, even questions like how are you feeling immediately after something like that? Or attacks on elderly, our elderly aunties and Asians across the country. Is is a tough question to ask because oftentimes it places this emotional burden on the person to to reassure you that they're OK or to explain to you how they're feeling. So I think being mindful of that is important. But when you do find space and an opportunity, I think a lot of these stories have been buried very deeply, you know, within people's conscience and subconscious. And so, providing a safe space for your Asian friends and colleagues to share is just as important to because at the end of the day, it's about de-invisibilizing them and their stories. So I think on a personal level, that's really important in sharing those stories. Right. Is just as important, elevating them, bringing them into the public eye as you know, as much as you can and as much as they're they're comfortable with. This is also important. You know, if you have the means donate. There are just a number of GoFundMes that are, you know, coming to light, especially in light of specific tragedies and attacks against Asian elderly folks. You know, if you can donate, definitely do that. And just it's using whatever means you have if you can't donate. But you can write, I mean, write something. You know, if you are a photographer, like take portraits of Asian people and and elevate those stories if you can, you know, organize and do petitions and do drives and do that, too. I mean, I think it's like finding what what area of your life can you do that can shed a little bit more light on what's happening to our community and and honoring the joy within our community as well.
[00:49:32] JW (con't): Oh, actually, I do have one more thing. And then the last thing I'll say is and I think this also is really relevant and relates to Black Lives Matter and the George Floyd protests. But I think being really mindful of how much pain you're sharing on social media and what I what I say by that is like sharing really traumatic videos of attacks and killings. Like I remember coming out of George Floyd and so many of my social media community was saying like. Please stop sharing these videos without trigger warnings or without like just like a pause in the beginning of the video, because it's really, really traumatic for our Black brothers and sisters to internalize that and see that. And I got that. But then I really got that over the last few weeks where I was like, oh, wow. Like, I can't, this is horrible. I can't watch this. This is so demoralizing. And so I've been trying to just share a lot of, like, joyous things about our history. And, you know, I think sharing Asian joy and Asian success is just as important in terms of. In terms of education and in terms of solidarity, so yeah.
[00:51:00] JG: Yeah, yeah, no, thank you. Thank you for sharing. So, final question I always like to close with this just, is there anything that you wanted to talk about or you think that's important that I didn't ask or we didn't get to discuss?
[00:51:17] Oh, I really think you nailed it. I mean, you are such wonderful questions. And I think, no, I think this is great. I think, it's just such a, we're in such a uncertain time and I think we're all collectively going through a very traumatic time period with the pandemic and being isolated from our loved ones and isolated from our friends and not really having a lot of assurance about what the future will look like, especially if you're going through financial struggles or other types of mental health issues. So I guess the last thing I'll just say is just to be gentle with yourself and with others. This is I don't think we'll really understand and comprehend the impacts of this pandemic until years in the future. You know, folks who I worked with a lot of sexual assault survivors and, you know, it's very commonly known that a lot of their trauma doesn't exist until or does it really kind of resurface and kind of, you know, internalize until later after the incident? Right. Like in flashbacks or whatever. And I think that's the same for much most of, you know, trauma that we experience as humans. And so be gentle with yourself. Yes, we're going to be the light is at the end of the tunnel. But like, you know, we still have a lot of compassion that we need to practice for one another and for ourselves. And whether you're in the AAPI community or not, we're going to get through it together.
[00:53:04] JG: Oh, thank you. That's a beautiful yeah.
[00:53:08] JW: Thank you.
[00:53:10] JG: Well, I'm so appreciative of your time and thoughtfulness. This has been a really wonderful conversation for me and my my growth and learning. I hope that the folks listening have felt that they've gotten at least a little more knowledge in their quest for trying to understand what dominant narratives are and how we can how we can identify them and start to to take them apart in ourselves. Yeah. So thank you, really.
[00:53:41] JW: And thank you, Jenn, for creating the space. Again, we talk about, like what we can do as creators and what we can do in Hollywood like this is exactly that. And so I really appreciate you holding space and making space for this conversation. And, um, and yeah, I mean, I can't wait to come on again at some point in the future and I can't wait to have you on my podcast to talk a little bit more about that intersection with, you know, social justice and mindfulness and so forth. So thank you.
[00:54:10] JG: I would love that. Well, thank you. Thank you for listening to The Other Story. If you'd like to check out the resources that we talked about today on the interview or a full transcription of the podcast, check out The Other Stories substack. Thanks so much and see you next time on the other story.