Episode 5: Mental health narratives with Ruhi Bhalla
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Ruhi Bhalla interview - 5:11:21, 6.34 PM.mp3
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:00:00] This May, in honor of Mental Health Awareness Month, The Other Story is releasing a series of episodes examining the dominant narratives around mental health and in partnership with MTV and a coalition of organizations from around the country. The other story is supporting the first ever mental health action day on May 20th by sharing resources on actions you can take to care for your mental health and support others in their mental health journey. Head over to our substance at theotherstory@substack.com to find all the resources there.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:00:36] I think we're really reaching a moment that content creators and writers and directors really need to sit and ask themselves like is is one hundred percent creative control worth the consequences that your content might have in the real world or the like? Is it worth the implications and impact it has on on your viewers?
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:01:02] You're listening to The Other Story, a podcast about the stories we live by. Each episode we will examine a dominant narrative in our society and ask how it came to be, how it might be changed, and how Hollywood has played a role in reinforcing or deconstructing it. I'm your host, Jennifer Gottesfeld. Hollywood has a long history of misrepresenting, well, just about everything having to do with mental health. A recent USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative study found that it's rare to find content with a mental health storyline, and those storylines are often disparaging, satirizing or trivializing one made. These types of portrayals create fear and shame around even talking about mental health, even though more than 50 percent of us will experience a mental health condition at some point in our lifetime. I definitely know I have. Today, we're going to be speaking with Ruhi Bhalla about the legacy of mental health storytelling in Hollywood, some of the remarkable headway that's been made to shift some of those narratives and also the work ahead that we still need to do. Ruhi works on the social impact team across the MTV Entertainment Group of Viacom CBS. She works to amplify social justice movements by working alongside nonprofit partners on issue driven storylines within content and impact campaigns. Prior to her role, Ruhi worked in documentary and film production, where she developed a passion for using storytelling as a vehicle for social change. She holds a bachelor's degree and performance studies and documentary production from New York University's Tisch School of the Arts. Ruhi, thank you so much for being with me today.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:02:45] Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:02:47] It's really exciting to be talking to you, especially during Mental Health Awareness Month, which is really the focus of this entire month of podcasts for me. So I'm very grateful to be to be talking with you about this really important topic. Let's let's dig in. So I like to start these conversations really grounding us in where we're at now, what is happening at this moment. So understanding what what exists in terms of some of the current dominant narratives around mental health and a little bit of background about like why they exist the way that they do in today's society.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:03:32] Yeah, so I think just like as human beings, as like a good starting off point, it's really important to acknowledge that like we as human beings and people like everybody has mental health. And often it's always talked about with a complete lack of understanding and nuance. It's always through the lens of, you know, really severe, quote unquote, mental health conditions or people in complete crisis rather than the sort of day to day mental health that we all have and all experience. Right. And so characters in TV and film, they all have mental health at different different stages. And I think when we're thinking about mental health stereotypes or current dominant narratives that exist, there's this association that people who have mental health conditions have really extreme behavior, whether that's like manipulation, whether that is like violence again, et cetera, et cetera. And so we're seeing mental health really be used as a scapegoat for and in a way to rationalize really unhealthy behavior when often it is a little bit more complicated than that. And that mental health is a scale and people don't just commit acts of violence because they have a mental health condition. It is there's a lot more nuance and a lot more going on there.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:04:59] Yeah, definitely. You know, talking about how how mental health is portrayed in this very sort of nuanced way, where do we see that? Like what are some of the examples of of that sort of problematic trope in media?
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:05:17] Yeah, I think one of the earliest or one really example that sticking out for me in terms of like film and TV is One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I know a lot of folks watch that and like AP psych or psych in psychology classes and growing up, things like that. But it's a really dramatic story and it is based on a true story. So I think that that makes us a little bit more complex. But it is set in sort of a mental health institution in which people are acting out in really dramatic ways, in ways that like their. Their mental health conditions and psychology is used in a way to really dramatize and make fun of and poke fun of really serious mental health conditions that that exist. And that's not to say that, you know, you can never talk about mental health in a way that utilizes storytelling like drama and comedy, etc. But it's sort of the way in which that story does that, in the way in which they take viewers into a place that's like in a silo, like a mental health facility in an asylum and really take them to this journey. And that says, look at all of these different types of people that are our quote unquote crazy, are really struggling or are different and weird.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:06:37] That would be, I think, one of one example that I sort of think to and sort of traditional film and TV. But I think also when we're talking about mental health, like a lot of these origin stories and how we as a culture perceive and understand, mental health really does also come from the news and the way journalists are reporting about mental health conditions and the way that they're reporting things that are happening in the world. I think that, like mass shootings are a really great example of that in which the narrative about who is a quote unquote, mass shooter and why they're doing certain acts of violence, et cetera. I think a lot of that that narrative has been, you know, this person is has a severe mental health condition. They're quote unquote crazy, they're unstable. That's why they're committing this act of violence. And we know that, like data and research and psychologists tells us that people who are struggling with mental health conditions aren't necessarily violent. That is just a misconception based on these tropes initiatives that people who commit these acts of violence are, quote unquote, mentally ill or have mental health conditions, etcetera.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:07:49] Yeah, that's such a great example. It feels like often the only time that mental health discourse is really like commonplace in both the media and among just general conversation is after these these tragedies like mass shootings, which is incredibly problematic. I'm curious, what are what are some of the stories that are are missing? Like what are what are some of the where where is the storytelling missing?
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:08:21] I think there are not many intersectional stories around mental health. And I might say that I mean, like there aren't a lot of stories about mental health explored from the perspectives of people with different marginalized identities. So whether that is stories about people of color who are navigating different mental health conditions, like there's a real lack of that right now. This is US has gotten a lot of press for their mental health storytelling and how it talks about communities of color. And we definitely desperately need more of that. I think another thing, too, is just like therapists on TV or mental health professionals on TV, we don't really see that unless it's in the context of something. I mean, we're starting to see that more. So I shouldn't say we don't really see that. But I think there is definitely a need for more stories around and more stories and narratives around the mental health professionals themselves, because I think that there's a lot of stigma around, a lot of stigma and a lot of misconceptions around who is a therapist, what is therapy like, what you know, who are these people that we choose to open up to? And I think storytelling has a really big role in sort of demystifying who a therapist is and can really make therapists and mental health professionals feel more accessible and relatable.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:09:43] Yeah, I actually in preparing for for talking with you today, that was that was something that came up in some of the things that I was reading around, not just the portrayal of of people experiencing different mental health conditions, but just like you said, how how the different treatments are portrayed and how I think it was that there the therapists or psychiatrists are either like scary or evil. I think your example of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is a good example, or you're making like psychiatric facilities out to be like prisons, also stigmatizing treatment itself. So there's a whole interesting second part of the conversation, which is about how how we talk about getting support.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:10:32] Right. When when we a lot the stories we do see around mental health conditions are always in people experiencing these conditions in the extreme. So whether that is like they're really experiencing an extreme of mania or bipolar disorder or whatever, you know, the condition might be, it's always in the extreme. And I think that. Oftentimes, you know, as a as a human being, if you're not or as a viewer, if you're not, if you don't experience those extremes or that, you know, that condition doesn't look like that for you is in the extremes, you don't really tend to see the warning signs and you don't tend to resonate with what you're seeing. And you think, oh, I don't have a mental health condition. I could never have a mental health condition because the way that it shows up in my life is so dramatically different than how it shows up on screen. So I think it can really be a barrier to how a barrier and people getting help and, you know, taking that first step to really learn about what these different mental health conditions are, what they can look like because they're such a distance, because no one wants to be associated with something that is portrayed as something to be so violent and negative.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:11:40] Yes, that I mean, it's interesting. One of the things that I think about is the need in entertainment to be dramatic, to have to have it be extra ordinary and the tension between that and the responsibility of being or the responsibility to society. And so I'm curious I'm curious how how you've thought about that sort of tension.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:12:09] Yeah, I think that when people start to play with comedy and drama outside of a mental health condition and sort of the the different external factors that can cause emotional reactions, I think you sort of open up the playing field. So if if the narrative goes, you know, instead of it being someone has a severe breakdown. And that is the dramatic after going for if it's like if it's something external, like there was it was if it was something external so that a big dramatic event happened at the school or the school dance got canceled because they didn't have budget or whatever, and that caused, you know, emotional distress for a bunch of people. I think that it is a it shows that, like different external things in life can sort of you know, they have reactions and they impact everyone's mental health in different ways. But it all sort of takes the onus off of, like, showing those arcs and showing that drama through a mental health condition. Does that make sense?
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:13:17] Yeah, yeah, definitely. That makes a lot of sense. And, you know, one of the one of the goals of of my podcast in this conversation is to help filmmakers, writers identify some of that and be able to say, oh, I can do it a different way. So I think that's a great example of a different way to to look at the same. The same desire and having having it be a different social outcome, I'm curious, so still sitting in the in the dominant trope section of of what's. Problematic and I know that things are starting to change, but before we talk about that change, I'm wondering how some of the the narratives that you've seen around mental health have manifested in in your lived experience or in your work?
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:14:12] I think for me personally, so much around how I experienced mental health and navigated, you know, mental health in my life was always so different from what I saw on TV and I could never really understand. It wasn't like I for context. I sort of I grew up my parents worked a lot. They they work in a warehouse and they growing up, they just sort of left the TV on. And I watched tons of movies and TV and that's how I learned about the world around me. It was always through storytelling and other people's story and so stories and things like that. And so I really, really like personally look toward storytelling to learn about the world around me. And I sort of noticed that the way that a lot of the characters in the shows I watched or movies I watched experienced mental health was nothing like how I experience mental health. Right. Because for me as a queer, when a woman of color my mental health, the different ways in which I experience these things, just look and show up different in my life due to culture, due to like, you know, the way in which I experience the world due to systemic oppression and things like that. And so I think that because mental health depictions and TV has always been through this really, really narrow lens of, you know, the extremes, it really has produced such a disconnect for me. Like, I don't see how mental health on the TV is on, you know, in popular movies and TV is related to sort of my experience.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:15:56] Yeah. Oh, thank you for thank you for sharing, really. You know, in thinking about how how narratives manifest in our lived experience, I think that that example really resonates with me just in terms of. How we internalize what we see and think that is natural law, that's the truth. That's how things are. And my experience of internalized sort of stigma around mental health that I I acquired from being a child of the 90s and consuming media that was very much that had these two tropes that I noticed that were either you shouldn't seek treatment because that means that you're weak and that you either are like, you know, a robot in your mental health or you're considered, quote, a crazy woman, which, you know, no one wanted to be considered. Or, you know, there were this the people who were special, like, you know, they talked about Van Gogh or about Edgar Allan Poe, you know, people who we know have experienced depression and been like, oh, they're geniuses. And, you know, if you took away their depression, it would take away their specialness or their greatness and be like those were two really dominant narratives that I've noticed manifest manifest in myself, especially when considering my mental health and how to approach it. And when I've had mental health conditions that I've experienced in the past and still experience. I notice that programming coming up. And I need to like, say, hey, I see you, I see what you're doing there. And actually it's not true. Seeking help doesn't mean that you're weak or a failure. It actually means that you're strong and working on your resiliency. But it takes a lot of effort to fight that because it's been so deeply internalized.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:17:58] Yeah, another trope that I constantly think about is like the quote unquote manic pixie girl, like romance films and TV. And it's that girl who is like, you know, really self-aware and knows her feelings, but is sort of all over the place and experiences mania and is going to be the person that thinks this fixes, you know, fixes you and she fixes. I mean, they're always like I am. I'm sure they're queer examples, but they're always like straight couples. And the girl is like, yeah, these boys that are interested in this, like manic pixie dream girl, like they place so much of their healing and their growth and fixing their life on this one girl and one experience. I sort of think about that a lot and sort of are like how big that narrative plays out in our culture and how people perceive relationships and how often people don't get help and they rely on their significant partner for that emotional growth and help in healing. And I think that is something that I think about a lot and have definitely been, you know, has manifested in my relationships at some point. To be honest with
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:19:08] You, I so appreciate you saying that. You know, I I had never thought of of that particular example, but, oh, my gosh, that resonates so, so deeply. Garden State was like my coming of age movie. And I was like all I wanted was to be like the Natalie Portman character because I thought that was what, you know, every every man wanted. Yeah, that's such a good example. So moving from unpacking some of the these old old sort of dominant tropes and narratives, what what does this new new wave of media, a new era of storytelling around mental health, what is that starting to look like and would love? You know, in your answer for you to talk a little bit about the work that you do, which is which is really exciting.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:20:03] Yeah, I mean, I think that there is. I think there are so many, like I'll start off like big and small, I think like in terms like really big rewriting and new narratives that we really need to see. I think one is like all stories of help seeking and resiliency, like I think often we see people in, you know, not getting help or not doing the quote unquote work in order to get to a place where there are really healthy and thriving. And so I think definitely more stories that show that process and the ups and downs and how tricky and difficult that really can be is is a huge, I think, opportunity for filmmakers and writers and and entertainment folks to really tap into. And I think also, you know, talking a lot about how mental health isn't always these big, like, big moments of crisis. Right. I think, like suicide is something that we really typically think and talk about in this very intense monolith. Like you either experience suicidal ideation or you don't have suicidal ideation. And often it's not that quote unquote, black or white or or binary. It's actually a lot more fluid in the process of what does help seeking look like if you are having suicidal thoughts, but maybe perhaps don't intend to act on them or don't know how you feel about them or are overwhelmed by them? I think those are there are a lot of opportunities in our storytelling to talk about the full continuum of experiences within mental health conditions and mental health in general.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:21:45] So I think that those are really big narratives that we can sort of tap into. And I think also one thing is like the the ray of mental health conditions are far beyond like depression and anxiety and bipolar disorder. Those are often the stories of mental health conditions that are in our our in our lexicon of content. And often there's so many more different, like mental health conditions and experiences that really impact people in different ways. And I think tapping into some of those experiences and feelings overall is, I think, really a right a right place to be. I think in sort of in terms of deconstructing these narratives, a lot of actually the work that I do is in the unscripted and reality TV space, which I think is really ripe, is a really ripe opportunity to sort of reconstruct narratives, because I think that that genre historically has been under scrutiny by a lot of different different in different countries and different formats for being really exploitative of people who have mental health conditions and been really, you know, a genre that has that rightfully so, has sometimes has a really critical eye.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:23:04] And I think that there's a lot of work being done around, like how can we really reimagine and rethink about reality TV and unscripted content in a way that is focused sort of against those tropes of being exploitive and exploitative and, you know. Using mental health conditions for drama and instead getting to a place where we are like talking about mental health in a really interesting way, really showing that journey and being honest and authentic in our depictions of reality TV. And for me, Queer Eye is a really great example of that, that change. Right. When you look when you think about the Fab Five and how they talk to people about their experiences and their lives and the changes that they want to make like that is really sort of inspiring and very much on the other spectrum of reality TV and unscripted content from people fighting and pulling out their hair and getting mad at each other because of X, Y and Z. So I think that there is a lot of opportunity in reality TV specifically just because that's what I care about and watch. But I think that that being an example of what deconstructing those narratives can look like or how we can really use our genres and formats to to talk about mental health in a new and exciting ways.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:24:30] That's that's really awesome. I I've never I haven't thought about the reality side of things. So that's that's really interesting. I focused so much on, like working with with screenwriters about noticing the things they're perpetuating. But that's, of course, of course, that makes so much sense. So in terms of that, how I think the Queer Eye example is really great. I wonder if you could share maybe just a few other illustrative examples of things that you're seeing that you feel like are, you know, yeah. This is the direction we should be going in.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:25:09] Yeah, I think another example, I guess, like some scripted examples, is I think I'm a huge Grey's Anatomy fan. I think Grey's Anatomy is a really interesting example. If you were to start from season one to like season 17 to really see the evolution and how we as a culture have sort of changed our thinking around mental health, mental health conditions, because so many different things come up on that show. But something that I think is really interesting to me is that the way that the show has handled like substance use and I am not an expert, but I think that that show has really come a long way. And its depiction of substance abuse disorders, right in the beginning of the series, like one of the characters, like they talk about what it would mean for them to be operating while under the influence because they're struggling with a substance use disorder, et cetera, et cetera. And that's a really big plotline and show arc. Right. Like, is this person is this person going to cause harm to other people because they are under the influence and operating verses like 14, 15 seasons later, the story arcs around substance abuse are much more fleshed out. And it's actually someone who, you know, who is who is sober, who struggled with substance use disorders, actually like adopting someone or fostering someone, a child who's struggling with those experiences. And together they're getting help and modeling what help seeking can look like, what it can mean to be sober and sort of get help and beyond that process of recovery. So that's sort of another example in which I feel like you can really see the change as a culture and how we sort of think about mental health conditions and some of these. Narratives.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:27:02] Yeah, no, that's that's such a great example. It's nice to be able to see something over such a long arc. I mean, that's essentially an entire generation of almost 20 years of of a show. And and how how much it's changed is really a wonderful case study. After a quick break, we'll look to the future and see how these narratives are changing, you know, at the same time as I think we're on an exciting trajectory, both in scripted and unscripted like you, you gave examples of, but also in influencers and celebrities coming out and speaking about their mental health. You know, while that's happening, there can also be a dark side. And I'm curious if there are things that you're seeing that you're concerned about sort of in juxtaposition to. This positive trajectory.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:28:01] I think one really interesting example that is like a really interesting warning sign, especially for writers who are interested in mental health writers and directors interested in mental health storylines, is 13 reasons why and 13 reasons why is a really controversial example, because it was based off of a book. And a lot of what goes on is, is that I mean, not to oversimplify, but a young girl dies by suicide and leaves tapes explaining why she decided to or what she was dealing with and like sort of like what led up to what led up to her death. And so one of the I mean, that show does a lot of different things. A lot of different issues are sort of explored throughout the three seasons. But one of the reasons why so many folks in the mental health community and so many experts were really struggling with that show is because it definitely oversimplified, like suicide. And often it is not like one thing or one factor that leads that sort of. It's not one thing or one factor like there's a lot that is going on and there's often a lot more that's going on in like suicide. Is not because of one specific thing, but because of many external factors, and I think one thing that really scares me is the oversimplification of depictions of suicide and really pointing. I think this narrative is really clear when it's like, oh, you know, someone died by suicide because they were bullied and not. And while bullying is a completely traumatic experience and can be really bad, I think often that there are other things that are going on.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:29:56] Right. It's not just bullying. It is that there might be genetics involved or a lack of support system involved or this and that. And so I think that when we oversimplify some of these things, we're not really dealing with the root causes and we're not prompting people to sort of get out. And I think part of the reason why suicide and thirteen reasons why was such a big conversation starter is because suicide is one of the topics or themes that research has found, like the more you talk about suicide, if you don't do so in a way that is appropriate or adheres to to messaging proper messaging around the issue, you can actually it can actually lead to contagion. So it can be it's one of those things that when you start talking about suicide, a lot like it can trigger suicidal ideation in other folks or people who might already be struggling. So one of the things with 13 reasons why and why it's so controversial is because they did a study that shows that the way that that show tackled mental health depictions and depictions of suicide were not really up to quote unquote message. And as a result, a lot of the viewers actually struggled. And there was a correlation between that show and viewers who who died by suicide as well. And so stuff like that is really, really concerning to me when there is an oversimplification, oversimplification of some of these really complex mental health issues and people, writers and creators, not really understanding the impact that some of their content can have if not done so appropriately. Responsibly.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:31:37] Yeah, that's such an important example. I, I did a little bit of of reading about 13 reasons why it just like you said, because it came up as one of the more controversial issue areas. And it's so interesting. It's interesting how. While provoking a conversation can be helpful and important, the. The unintended consequences without real intentionality, and probably I mean, it seems like Netflix had. At some point engaged with mental health professionals, but I think having having more voices in the room that are either people who have experienced or work, you know, deeply with with mental health issues in particular, particularly suicidal ideation, probably would have would have benefited that writer's room.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:32:39] I think we're really reaching a moment that content creators and writers and directors really need to sit down, ask themselves like is is 100 percent creative control. Worth the consequences that your content might have in the real world or the like, is it worth the implications and impact it has on on your viewers? And I often find myself really I work with a lot of creators and a lot of people are really wonderful and love to know what organizations say and really work really hard to, you know, make their content be ads like. Up to message an up to up to up to the messaging guidelines and really what to do right by having experts in the room, organizations, et cetera. And then I've in my life met tons of creators and creatives who are like, no, I don't care about what what these experts say or what the message guidance is, because that's not how you tell a good story. So I think, like, really taking a step back and understanding how the two different groups of people can really meet each other. Where they're at is is something I really look for where I would love to see in the future of storytelling and to really see us as storytellers not be so fixated on what's historically done. But look at this, these messaging, guidance and feedback from experts as really exciting and new areas of play and areas to share stories in ways that are meaningful and impactful and push us to be more creative and think differently. And so I think that that is something and sort of in rewriting narratives, I would love to see from a process perspective and more collaboration with people who have lived experience and exper experience.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:34:32] Yes. Oh, my gosh. I could not agree more. That's something that. Yeah, the artistic integrity sort of excuse me, I just I find to be empty. It's just, you know, I think it's it's exactly that. It's an excuse to be irresponsible. You know, I often my belief is every single piece of content that anyone makes that and puts out to the world has a social impact, whether they want it to or not, whether they intended to or not, and to deny that or to be unintentional and not think about that, at least in my perspective, is is irresponsible. And the creativity and artistry doesn't need to be an individual endeavor. And like that individualistic mentality is speaks to a larger, you know, systemic. Problem in our culture, but, yeah, I know that I really appreciate you saying that I would love for you to speak a little bit about the the work that you do either maybe in context of Mental Health Awareness Month or, you know, in generalities. But it feels like you're doing a lot of hands on work in some of this narrative change space. And and we'd love to learn more about that to whatever extent you're allowed to talk about it.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:36:04] So one of the projects that I've sort of been working on and is along with with a coalition of expert advisory partners and industry partners, is this sort of website called the Mental Health Media Guide Dotcom. And it's all about giving filmmakers, writers, creatives the information sources that they need to understand what the near that, what the current like context is for different mental health issues and then understand the what narrative opportunities they are and sort of creating a culture change. And so one of the things that we heard from a lot of creatives who are interested in mental health storytelling is, you know, there's just a lot of things we don't know that we don't understand. And experts are really hard sometimes to understand. They're like what? Like creatives have told me multiple times, like, I don't have time or the ability to read this like a 100 page academic report on the impact of language, or I don't really understand this like academic lecture because it's, you know, in a different setting than I'm used to, et cetera, et cetera. So a lot of the work that this media guide site does is that it takes all of the learnings from different experts and packages in a way that is easy to understand and relevant to content creators.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:37:33] So, for example, if I and a producer, a horror producer and I was like, I want to make a horror film about mental health, like where the guide rails that I need to know to ensure that that my TV show or my movie doesn't, you know, feed into negative negative narratives about mental health. I would use the site, click on the horror section, sort of get the top line information that I need to know to make sure that my show isn't feeding into negative narrative and negative narratives. And so it's a really it's a tool that sort of similar to the Glide media reference guide and sort of color of changes work. I know there are a lot of amazing organizations doing a lot of narrative narrative change work and there are a lot of organizations who do mental health organizations who do work with companies and creatives. But this is just sort of one place where it all exists so that, you know, when people networks don't have capacity to, you know, consult on something, that creatives don't have the information they need to really make great creative decisions about mental health stories.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:38:42] That's really that's really amazing and valuable resource. Is that something that's just publicly available or is that something they need to.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:38:52] The amount it is publicly available, it is now publicly available. I've been working on it for a while, but it is this go to Mental Health Media Guide, Gökhan, and it is it is all there and it's been done by coalition of partners.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:39:09] I'm curious, could you give some examples of some of the things that are in the guide?
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:39:16] I think one example that is sticking out is that often a lot. And there are a lot of influencers or people who have big social media platforms that are like, I want to talk about mental health on my platform, on my Instagram or Facebook or whatever format that people are using to share their story. They want to share their story, but they have no idea how to share their story. They have no idea what's the right thing to say. They don't know if it's what's too much or what's too little. They're really scared that they're going to say something wrong and people are going to like attack them because that's now influencer culture and things like that. And so there is in the media guide ways like a section on influencers and celebrities and sort of telling them here are the rails and things that you need to know if you want to share your story, some of them being, are you actually ready to share your story? Are you really comfortable with people knowing, knowing the ins and outs of your life often like research shows and like a lot of people in top managers and things like that can tell you that people think they're ready to share their story. But then the second that they do that and they get so many like fans or people on the Internet either saying really positive things are really negative things, it becomes a really overwhelming experience and an experience that they're maybe not 100 percent ready for.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:40:45] So we want to do everything in our power to make sure we don't get that, that we really get that we feel really good about sharing our story in a way that is that feels good to us and is going to be good for us in, you know, in 10 days. So and obviously you can never predict what might happen. But just making sure that you're asking yourself those questions to make sure that you are ready to share your story. Another thing that happens is often, especially when we're talking about influencers, something to sort of keep in mind is that, you know, a personal experience, what might work for you? Like, people are really quick to say, you know, this this workout routine, like, saved me. It cured X, Y and Z. And while that might have worked, that routine might have worked really well for you and might have genuinely made all the difference for your mental health. It is you know, we have to make sure that the information we're sharing to platform and to an audience is like actual. It's you know, it's based on evidence like doctors and therapists and mental health professionals also agreed that that routine is really great for your for your mental health. And that's just the sort of silly example. But I think sometimes when people are sharing their story, like depending on who it is, it is really easy to share misinformation that can cause a lot of harm.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:42:13] Oh, yeah, definitely. That's that's a really interesting and great example. I'm excited to read through the guide. Yeah. I mean, I think about. It again, going back to individualism like it's really it's really wonderful and courageous for people to come out and speak about their experience, both as a model of of that sort of vulnerability and honesty and showing that, you know, this is something real and people are going through. But at the same time, just like you said, there's that danger, that danger might be too strong of a word. But we all experience we have different experiences to what you were saying before around nuance and how simplistic both like mental health is spoken about sort of as a monolith, but also like very simplified. And that to tell a story, either personal story or, you know, something that's scripted with nuance, it takes a lot of intentionality and effort and work to not just. Sort of default to stereotypes and what is nuance actually look like and how do you share it when it's so personal and individual? I think the more nuance one gives, the more it's clear that every individual has their own process and journey. Then if, you know, if we sort of distill it down to the two common denominators. Yeah, that's. That's really interesting. I'm so in sort of thinking about how listeners can internalize what they've what they've just heard and learned, what what are some things that folks can do right now to help identify when they see these narratives be able to actually like notice and call it out? And and what work can we do on ourselves and in society to start to to break down and address some of these narratives?
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:44:30] Research shows that, you know, if you know someone who has a mental health condition, there is less stigma involved, meeting people with mental health conditions, hearing about people, hearing people talk about their experiences with mental health conditions, that reduces stigma, that reduces people's, you know, misperceived perceptions of what it means to have a mental health condition. So I think one thing that we can all do is talk about our feelings more, listen to people when they talk about their feelings, like understand mental health outside of these really intense binaries of I'm OK, I'm great, I'm happy, I'm dandy with I'm struggling with a really severe mental health condition. I think the more that we understand and step away from that binary and the more that we talk about the day to day of like today was really shitty because X, Y and Z happened, or I'm really upset and I can't figure out why I'm upset. The more that we sort of break down our feelings and how that relates to our mental health and and can potentially contribute to are indicative of bigger mental health conditions is really, I think, a huge way for us to to understand these things more in a way that it's going to impact storytelling is going to impact how we perceive narratives and things like that.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:45:58] Yeah, that's that is really great advice. I mean, it's it's advice that's good not only for breaking down narratives, but also just for better well-being and and connection with one another. I mean, there is something really important to be said about not only being able to identify within yourself how you're feeling and talk about it, but how that connects you with the people who you're who you're talking to about it. In conclusion, I'm curious, are there any other other thoughts that you have, anything that we miss that you want to make sure we talk about before we end today?
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:46:40] One thing that I think is I kind of talked about it earlier, but just to like. Hit that point home without without clear, a little clear is, I think, a really great opportunity when we talk about help seeking and about showing narratives and stories of people getting help is sort of seeing people with marginalized identities getting help and, you know, taking care of their mental health. I think that that, you know, the more that people people see narratives that look like them, the more likely they can understand or believe that that is something they can also do. And I think like. I think. I don't want us to underestimate the power that seeing different people with different identities, getting help can have on our society and culture. I think, like one really prominent example that comes to mind is like never have I ever, which is Mindy Kaling comedy and sitcom. Like, I think it's a really great example of like a young South Asian brown girl going to therapy and getting help. And that's not a narrative that we see often. And I think that there's a lot of cultural stigma. I'm South Asian and based on my experiences, there's a lot of cultural stigma around getting help and help seeking and mental health and in general. And I think that that depiction does a lot for a lot of South Asian girls in the United States who are seeing this story and realizing that people like that, like them can also get help and that it's OK.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:48:21] And that therapy helped this girl on the show and might be able to help me, too, if I wanted to do that. And so I think that those those things like sounds so small. It's like one little scene in one show. But those are often the moments that can really save lives. Those are the moments that can prompt people to get help. And I think that something that I've learned is like a lot of the work that I do is or I have done is like putting resource cards on shows at the end of shows. And when you think about, you know. Some you think about, you know, a resource card on social media or things like that that you put out in the world, seeing how many people actually access them because you put that on your show or you put that on your social media account is a really great way to remind yourself that, like mental health stories and storytelling does have an impact. You are prompting people to get helped to reach out to do something. And that's something that can be so damn powerful and like create a stronger culture of help seeking and people being healthy and living their best lives. And so I think that's all I have left.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:49:36] Oh, that's that is a great a great thought to close on. And I love that show. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Ruhi Bhalla: [00:49:47] Thank you so much for having me.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:49:49] It's been yeah. It's been a real pleasure talking with you and getting to pick your brain a little bit about about the work that you're doing and and how mental health storytelling is changing and really exciting ways. And and the part you're playing in that. I'll list the guide since it's public on our substack, theotherstory.substack.com and and other resources that we talked about today so that folks can easily find them. If you or someone you know is experiencing a mental health emergency or needs help immediately, please call nine one one. Or if that doesn't feel safe for you, you can also text start to seven four one seven four one or call one 800 273. Talk for additional support and resources. Please visit theotherstory.substack.com. Thanks so much for listening to the other story and this special series for Mental Health Awareness Month. We'll see you soon and take good care.