Episode 6: Women' s mental health narratives with Jessica Good
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Read the transcript here:
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:00:02] This May, in honor of Mental Health Awareness Month, The Other Story is releasing a series of episodes examining the dominant narratives around mental health and in partnership with MTV and a coalition of organizations from around the country. The Other Story is supporting the first ever Mental Health Action Day on May 20th by sharing resources on actions you can take to care for your mental health and support others in their mental health journey. Head over to our substack at theotherstory.substack.com to find all the resources there.
Jessica Good: [00:00:37] I think it's important to ask yourself when you are talking about mental health or thinking about it, why you're telling that story and asking yourself, is this condition being used as a plot device? Is it being used for humor? Is there not an unnecessary stigma being depicted or is treatment at all being depicted? How is treatment being depicted? I think those are really important questions to ask yourself when creating something.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:01:08] You're listening to The Other Story, a podcast about the stories we live by each episode, we will examine a dominant narrative in our society and ask how it came to be, how it might be changed, and how Hollywood has played a role in reinforcing or deconstructing it. I'm your host Jennifer Gottesfeld.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:01:31] Hysterical. That was an actual medical diagnosis used to describe women experiencing any type of mental health condition, looking at women's mental health through that binary. The happy woman with no opinions or the insane, wild woman has been the hallmark of how women's mental health has been portrayed in film and television since the beginning. This reductive dismissal by the media of the spectrum of women's mental health needs and experiences has led women to believe that in order to be, quote unquote normal, whatever that is, they need to be unemotional and as programmed men to believe that any woman who expresses their feelings must be crazy. Today, I'm going to be speaking to Jessica Good about where those narratives originated, why they have persisted and the deprogramming work that is being done to change them. Jessica Good is the co-founder of the Young Entertainment Activists, a community led organization in Hollywood, and she is currently getting her master's degree in counseling psychology in Berkeley. Jessica is a former entertainment professional with experience as a talent manager, a producer and post-production consultant at a variety of companies such as Netflix, ABC Studios, Focus Features and United Talent Agency. She has experience working in the juvenile justice system and has been a longtime advocate of criminal justice reform. Her goal is to utilize her experience to make a material impact on individuals and groups at large. Thank you so, so much for being here with me today, Jessica.
Jessica Good: [00:03:05] Thank you for having me.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:03:07] I always start these interviews as my listeners will be familiar with trying to ground us in how we got here, where we're coming from. So I'd love to start by just exploring what are some of the current dominant narratives about women's mental health that exist and where did they come from?
Jessica Good: [00:03:27] Well, some of the current and dominant narratives that have evolved over time and also have stayed very much the same are what you alluded to in your intro, which is starting with a woman as emotional and crazy, hysterical, mad, wild. These are all terms that were typically utilized for used to refer to women, you know, in historically due to the patriarchy within which we still operate, as well as the deeply rooted sexism that, you know, looked at women as too emotional, too much unruly was something that was we were not familiar with. And therefore, you know, varying mental health conditions were not largely not accepted. Women were, you know, expected to be wives, mothers, you know, contained to their homes, happy to make dinner and serve their partners. They were not encouraged to explore depression, anxiety, you know, different kinds of emotional issues that came up throughout their experiences and instead were suppressed. And so that narrative has definitely stayed the same over time. It has changed a little bit as we've gone on. You see different iterations of the hysterical or wild woman in films and television. A perfect example is the show Homeland, in which you see Carrie, the lead actress, going through a variety of ups and downs. And we're not sure whether to assume that she has a mental illness or if this is just played for show and part of the drama. And she actually is completely sane. So it has evolved over time, but that is one dominant narrative. Another is this idea of women as victims, as helpless, you know, failures who can't do anything for themselves. This was also rooted in the patriarch patriarchal standards and ideologies around women in terms of what their capabilities were. So, you know, a lot of of issues that come up now in television film as well as just in our culture is is that, you know, if you have a mental illness, you are a victim to that illness, that it is difficult to transcend, that it is difficult to work through it, and that society at large really isn't paying much attention to how to support you in growing out of that or women growing out of that or working through it.
Jessica Good: [00:06:15] Another couple dominant narratives are, you know, how how mental health plays into a woman's sexuality, how many mental illnesses, you know, from borderline personality disorder to schizophrenia to a variety of different disorders involve heightened sexuality. And that has also become a dominant narrative, which is that, you know, perhaps a woman is trying to seduce someone or perhaps that she is a product of society and and labeled, you know, a seductress rather than seeing her mental condition for what it is, which is a symptom of the the heightened sexuality being a symptom. So those are some of the dominant narratives as well as just, you know, narratives around women needing medication to be happy that there's a pill, that there's an easy fix for your depression or your dissatisfaction with your life. And that has also been really historically rooted in so many women, you know, when when in the 50s and 60s were contained to the household into very few roles, were really largely unhappy. Many were. And so medication was utilized as an easy fix to keep women in the home, to keep them sedated, to keep them, you know, in some way perpetuating the patriarchal roles that that have persisted and evolved definitely today, but have absolutely still been utilized in in film and television to kind of be seen as the the the suppressant of the masses.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:08:09] Those are those are really great examples that definitely resonate. I'm curious, you gave a little bit of a foray into this answer, but what what has Hollywood what role has Hollywood played in this? And, you know, the homeland example was. Was great, if you have any other illustrative examples to that effect.
Jessica Good: [00:08:32] Absolutely. I mean, one thing that Hollywood has done to perpetuate these dominant narratives is they have really inaccurately represented mental health in films. So whether it's, you know, a 2000 to 2019 Annenberg study showed that fewer than two percent of all film characters and roughly seven percent of all TV characters experience mental health conditions on screen, whereas 20 percent of the population experiences some form of mental health condition or illness per year. And I'm sure that that has come up. So in terms of representation, there has been a real disproportionate show on television and film of mental illnesses, as well as just portraying mental illnesses for humor as something that should be disparaged as a plot point that is not worthy of exploring in full or having a character just naturally be, you know, have a mental illness and has been used as a pivotal point for a show to kind of capitalize on rather than really genuinely look into and get get perspective of. You know, there has also just been a lot of representation of mental illness as leading to dangerousness and criminality, unpredictable predictability, something worth punishing. A lot of mental health conditions have been shown through the homicidal maniac trope as perpetrators of violence. So you see this in The Exorcist. You see this in the show, Pretty Little Liars. You see this even in Scandal. Who Olivia Pope, who is the main character's undiagnosed PTSD, turns her into a murderer in terms of the female patient as seductress that I was referring to. You see this in the 1980 film, Dressed to Kill a woman who is deserving of punishment, who is a product of their own manipulative making, again, placing the onus on the individual rather than the mental illness or looking at the bigger systematic contributions to that.
Jessica Good: [00:11:02] You also see mental illness portrayed through the trope of the zoo specimen as a person who is dehumanized without rights. Open to observation. You see this in the 1946 film Bedlam or the 1948 film snakepit. You also see mental illness portrayed as a narcissist, a person portrayed as a narcissistic parasite. So someone who is self obsessed with trivial problems. You see this in the film Lovesick, which was created in nineteen eighty three. So these are some of the the, the representations you see. And as you can hear, as I describe it, they're wildly overdramatized. They are made for show, they are played up. And that is one of the big issues with Hollywood is that because it is for entertainment purposes, it's using mental illness as a plot point, as something to be entertaining rather than accurate. And it can capitalizes on where society was at that time. So at these various points in these when these films were created and television shows were created, you can see where the culture was at in terms of talking about mental illness at that time. You know, obviously now we have much, much more complex and nuanced representations of mental health, mental illness and mental disorders. But it's we still have a long way to go, as you can see from that 2013 Annenberg study, which is that there is still disproportionate representation and it is used it is used for entertainment purposes rather than for reality.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:12:47] That was that was helpful to see, like the long history of misrepresentation and problematic representation around mental health and particularly women and women's experience with mental health. I'm curious how that has affected treatment seeking and how how that has been internalized by women in their experiences of of mental health and mental health disorders.
Jessica Good: [00:13:14] Right. In terms of how it's been internalized by society and culture at large. I think that especially in regards to treatment, I. I think that it also mirrors, again, at what stage are we at in terms of our comfortability with addressing mental health in ourselves and seeking treatment in ourselves. So historically, mental health was something that people were made to feel extremely ashamed of. There was not that much discussion about it in in the culture at large. It was something that was hidden away, suppressed and was not something most people were comfortable talking about or even seeing in themselves. So as in terms of treatment, you know, that made it very difficult for people to, one, even know that they needed to seek treatment and to to have avenues to get appropriate treatment. And so in terms of representations that we're seeing now on television and in film regarding, you know, how we seek treatment, I think most people have internalized, you know, and continually evolve to internalize that this is something worth exploring, whether it's through therapy, whether it's through medication, whether it's through just talking about it a little bit more with their friends and family being able to understand what is going on within them a little bit better. As you know, the information age has given us access to so much more research and resources, and even social media has connected us to different communities of people who are struggling with the same things.
Jessica Good: [00:14:58] So I think that in terms of, you know, seeing mental illness on television and film, it both in one sense is makes it more makes it harder to see because it's being trivialized, it's being disparaged, it's being used for humor. And most people, especially women, are told, you know, what your feeling is, is not a big deal. You should get over it. You should be able to snap out of it. And that's a conception that most people have been, you know, really ingrained with in our culture, which is that mental illness is something that you should be able to get over rather than something that is deserving of treatment, that is worthy of really finding care for and taking care of, because it isn't something that is easily gotten over, no matter how television makes it out to be. So I think in that sense that it has made it harder to accept within ourselves. And at the same time, I do think we are working towards talking about it more, seeing it more, getting more familiar with it, and that that is leading to folks being more comfortable going out and seeking treatment.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:16:13] Some of the things that you talked about, especially forward looking, I want to get back to in a second. But before we go, there are some of the things that you mentioned at the beginning around treatment and treatment seeking. I'm curious, you know, we talked about how people internalized it, but how did these narratives and tropes affect them? Getting treatment, not seeking treatment. But once they go to get treatment, how how does it affect the treatment that they receive
Jessica Good: [00:16:39] In terms of how folks how these representations affect the treatment that is actually received? I think from my perspective, and I am in training to become a therapist, I'm in counseling and psychology, a master's program. It seems as though from where I'm sitting that it makes the resistance to the treatment initially much greater. So when you come into treatment and you've seen pretty negative representations, it's harder to lean into what the therapist or the psychiatrist is trying to work with you on. So there has historically been so much representation of eating disorders and that is a mental disorder that is extremely dominant in women especially. And it's something that we see all of the time in the media, which when people go to treatment, can make it very, very difficult for that treatment to be successful or it is just so, so deeply rooted in the person that it takes a much longer time. Similarly, in terms of seeing the amount of suicide portrayals, which are much more commonly represented on television and film, when you're going into treatment again, you have a large you have a long term built up perception of what suicide is represented as as well as your own personal experience with it. And that can make it difficult in treatment. I think also, you know, clinicians, therapists, psychiatrists, they can also have a. Degree of really having to locate the client and the the person receiving treatment in the bigger picture of how society and how the system with in which they're operating are contributing to their sense of their own mental illness, because that is such a big pressure. It is such a factor in how you identify your own mental illness and your own feelings and emotions and what you're going through that I think that there has been a much there's been an increasing responsibility of treatment professionals to locate the client in the bigger picture rather than just focusing in on their experience because of how much those two are interwoven.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:19:15] Hmmm, that's really interesting. I think in addition, I'm speaking from my own experience, and this is like probably 15 years ago when I first, I broke up with a boyfriend, my high school sweetheart, I was devastated, I, I definitely had experienced mental health, different mental health conditions at different points in high school, eating disorder, depression. None of that was clinically diagnosed. But looking back, it is pretty clear. So when I was 18, I was like, OK, therapy, I'm going to keep it secret. I tell anyone, I tell my parents, I'm going to go sort of seek it out. And I saw two different therapists, each one one time. And, you know, I was crying. I was upset. I just broke up with my boyfriend. And both times their response was, oh, this is normal and we can't really figure out what to diagnose you. As for the insurance forms, so, you know, we can we can do this, but, you know, we can't claim it on your insurance. And it was just like it was such a disheartening experience that it took me another probably eight, nine years before I finally re-engage in the mental health community and my own mental health work and have since had a very different experience. I think you're right. Like, there are a lot of narratives that are changing that I can see just even in the way that treatment is is talked about and is given. But I feel like that's another piece of this puzzle is how. How therapists, especially with with women, I feel like there's this, yeah, histeria, you know, when you're really upset about something that it's often diminished in really painful ways.
Jessica Good: [00:21:14] Absolutely, and I think something you're hitting on that is extremely important is being validated in what you're experiencing, and the invalidation, especially from a mental health professional, can be really, really difficult, and especially when you know where you're taking a risk by going there. And for most people, even now, it is very difficult to get to that office to have figured out the insurance, to be able to afford it, to be in a position of of some access, to know where to go and to be in a culture that is even somewhat accepting of treatment in that regard. And so I think that in terms of the benefits of having some and and of the few positive representations of mental health, it can increase validation in terms of I see myself reflected. And even if I am being invalidated by my family or my friends or my therapist, there is something to look to as an alternative to these folks who are telling me that my experience is not what I think it is or aren't exactly helping me get to a point where I know what it is, because so much of this needs to be dismissed, demystified, rather than shielded and shielded and protected more and more.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:22:46] Yeah, I'm curious if you can share any ways that you've seen these narratives manifested in your life, either personally or in in treating patients or working with patients to whatever extent you can or willing to share.
Jessica Good: [00:23:04] I mean, what in terms of how I've seen this show up in the clinical space is just how many people talk about feeling crazy and how that has taken over such the nuance of what a person is really experiencing and how quickly we avoid that person or their experience if it is just considered crazy rather than really listening to the person taking into consideration what could have gone into their experience. And I think that that's something that is constantly, you know, you you represented in the media, but you referred to it in terms of your relationship so much of the time. Again, going back to kind of sexist standards, so much of that time, much of that is used in relationships against women. She is crazy. She's needy, she's too emotional. And I think from a young age, women learn that really deeply or have historically. I think that's changing. Now, what I've definitely seen is that the the GenZE generation and even the young millennials have started to work out of that and have really been able to not be socialized in the same way and have started to understand the nuances of trauma, especially, you know, there has such been such an incredible understanding of the ways that trauma can affect our lived experience. That's something that is now much more talked about in this field with clients because more people are willing to come to treatment for trauma, even if it is something as small as, you know, getting beat up consistently on the playground or, you know, having a really intense home life with your parents.
Jessica Good: [00:24:59] And that was something that was not talked about in other than being in relation to, you know, vets from coming home from war, PTSD. Now, it is applicable to so many more experiences, adverse childhood experiences being one of them. And I think that in terms of also how these representations have manifests, I think more and more people, again, are just bringing themselves to treatment. Whereas, you know, often prior it was very, very difficult to get people there. Whereas now it's seemingly especially and I will say this it is it is still a highly, highly privileged and inaccessible treatment opportunity unless you are convicted of a crime and then sent to a psychiatric hospital or you have insurance. And many therapists don't take insurance. Many you know, psychiatrists don't take insurance. It's hard to get medication. This is still really difficult to access for most of the population. But with that said, there are still so many more people bringing themselves to groups to. Even 12 step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous, that is something that has worked really effectively to transition people into seeking mental health support because there's a bevy of resources at their fingertips once it's once they've gotten in the door. And I think that that's something that has been a really positive step forward. That's what I think of when you when you ask that question.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:26:40] After a quick break, we'll look to the future and see how these narratives are changing, it is really encouraging to have witnessed this shift over the past 10 years, much more so on the individual side, that on the treatment side, like you said, it's still so hard to actually find the treatment even when you get to the point where you're like, yes, I want this and seek it out. I'm curious how that how that started and particularly the media and entertainment's role in helping to change that narrative and sort of the trend that we're now seeing in the direction of openness towards talking about mental health and seeking mental health care.
Jessica Good: [00:27:22] Right, I think that the change in the media's representations have come as a direct result of the change in cultures, representations and discussions and general acceptance of increasing acceptance of mental health issues. And so, you know, Hollywood has done a good job typically of getting on the bandwagon once, you know, culture has demanded it to a certain extent and telling stories a little bit more liberally and openly than other industries, and especially since they have access to the masses. I think that's a big responsibility to bear. So there is that tension still of being entertaining and also telling different narratives of mental health issues and mental health issues is such an amorphous topic that is or it covers so much ground, it means so many things. So I think that's another big part of this, which is we're just beginning to get into all the different kinds of mental illnesses and all the different kinds of experiences of treatment and all the different cultural implications of different people, you know, getting treatment and how they access it and whatnot. So I think in terms of that shift, I think Hollywood itself is changing. I think there's new people in positions of power. I think, as you know, we get more comfortable talking about race, gender, class. Mental health is one of the elements that is being brought into the conversation and demanded by the people.
Jessica Good: [00:29:10] Primarily, it might not be comfortable. And I think that that's something that we're all realizing, especially in a pandemic, which is we are having to sit with our discomfort in a way that we never have before. I think that Hollywood is sitting with their discomfort and talking about mental health issues. It is we're we're learning from the past and we're capitalizing on that in order to be better in the future. But that takes having writers who have experienced depression, anxiety, you know, borderline personality disorder to be able to talk about it in an educated and informed way. Or, you know, it takes people who have gone to therapy to talk about therapy or to represent mental health professionals on television. I mean, you think about The Sopranos. That was a real a show that showed therapy in action with a very masculine white male mafia boss, you know, and that was something that was pretty radical or, you know, just thinking about some of the other, you know, a movie like Silver Linings Playbook, which got so much exposure and was about mental illness. Unfortunately, the one part of that was that she you know, in terms of in terms of her solving her mental illness, she was falling in love.
Jessica Good: [00:30:35] And that was something that cured bipolar disorder, which isn't necessarily the case, but it was a nuanced portrayal of bipolar disorder in a way that was vital to see on television, especially played by Jennifer Lawrence and Bradley Cooper together. I also think that just in general, I think that, you know, we are seeing a representation of personality disorders, which is something which is a nuanced, you know, mental illness that and it has a variety of characteristics. But for example, my crazy ex-girlfriend, played by Rachel Bloom, is a is an entire show about borderline personality disorder. And it really is a compassionate take on borderline personality disorder. You get to know the character before you learn she has borderline personality disorder. And that is the kind of television that is capitalizing on previous depictions that were a little bit, you know, again, more played for while she has borderline personality disorder. And we're going to kind of glorify that in a way that is a little bit, you know, fetishizing rather than actually genuine and again, compassionate. I think that's something that is hopefully the trend but is still still needs some work because there aren't that many shows that are taking compassionate approaches.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:32:07] I do. I love Crazy Ex-girlfriend. I feel like that was a transformative show for me for so many reasons. But I definitely felt like I was able to see a more full reflection of myself and my experiences on the screen. That was. That was important. Now, going back to sort of what you were talking about at the beginning, that Hollywood did, did this narrative change sort of a more reactionary way due to the demands of culture changing? And I'm curious where that came. Like what what are the narratives that were being introduced that Hollywood started picking up and how is that work happening to get to the point where Hollywood would be willing to actually start to show different narratives?
Jessica Good: [00:32:56] That's a good question. I think that. I think that a big part of it is that Hollywood is seeing and our culture is seeing that let's for example, we're talking about women. Women are so much more complex, are so multifaceted, are so incredible in so many different ways and have been for so long brushed under the rug and passed by for the sake of highlighting men, especially in leading roles in specific roles and reflections of how the patriarchal society has been set up for so many years. So I think that in terms of, you know, Hollywood changing its narratives, one of the big reasons is because there were so many more stories to tell. There was such a completely different arena to play and there were so many more women getting to be in positions of power that I think that that has completely bled into the writers room. It's bled into the director's chair. It's bled into the executive's office. I'm not saying that there isn't so much more work to be done. There is. But I do think that once there was kind of agreed upon cultural standard that was shifting due to first, second, third wave feminism, that there was going to be so much more opportunity to tell different stories. And then once those stories began to be told, people were interested, people were watching it, people were consuming it. I mean, you think about the 1996 film Girl Interrupted. You know, that was a film about borderline personality disorder. It was wildly popular and did a pretty good job and yet was still entertaining. Or, for example, Steven Soderbergh just did a film called Unsane, which is a stretch as a feminist film, but has a strong message that women are often disbelieved in silence.
Jessica Good: [00:35:10] That's something, again, that we're seeing in our culture come to fruition. Or, you know, we're seeing a show like this is American Horror Story Asylum, which again dramatizes and overplays mental health, you know, in people who are struggling with their mental health, but is still, again, bringing the story back to a just an exploration of different mentally ill characters who they are, that they're being held against their will and it isn't criminalizing them. I think that that's something as well as just, you know, as people are getting more and more treatment, there's also a fascination around what are these mental health professionals like. So you're seeing more shows about therapy. You know, the show in treatment, the show couples therapy. People are getting a little bit more intrigued by what goes on in a context like this, what goes on in a relationship like this. Similarly with The Sopranos example as well. And to a certain degree, that was a little fetishized, but at large, I do think that people are taking an interest as well as just seeing the complexity and the wide ranging experience of women, of, you know, people of color, of disabled people come into the fold much more and more. So I think we're just in general putting positions and people in positions, different people in positions to be able to tell these stories, as well as the culture shifting, as well as Hollywood seeing the numbers change and having platforms like Netflix, Hulu, et cetera, who are bringing content to people directly and aren't as confined, let's say, as a, you know, NBC Universal or a big studio is
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:37:06] You've named a lot of really exciting, you know, paths to to a better narrative future. I'm curious, you think you mentioned with American Horror Story some of the like good and bad. But I'm curious what what you're nervous about or what you're worried about how. Yeah, narrative change work is is complicated and can go in different directions. And so I'm curious if there's anything there that you're concerned about.
Jessica Good: [00:37:39] I think I am concerned about. Just reducing mental illness to a plot point, I think that it is pretty delicate to tell a story, you know, like the my crazy ex-girlfriend example really compassionately and in a nuanced way. I think it's also I'm worried about the proportionate part of it. I mean, women are more likely to have been treated for a mental health problem, but depression is more common in women. Anxiety is more common in women. And I just don't see that represented as much. And I also worry that if it is represented as much as it is represented in the population, that, again, women will get, you know, have to be stigmatized around being emotional, having these disorders and be again reduced to an experience or or a disorder. I think that's what I worry about, is can we tell stories that show a human being in full color rather than one slice of their rainbow? Because that slice of the rainbow is the hot topic in culture at that point. Same thing goes for, you know, are we going to tell a story about someone who's disabled and only focus on their disability? I think that that is that is something to be really mindful of as well as just are we telling stories about people with mental illnesses who have the privileges of getting care? Are we, you know, telling stories about people who don't get care? And we understand all the structural forces that play, whether it's poverty, whether it's violence, whether it's, you know, a variety of different factors that might be influencing them to experience trauma and then not do as well in school or be misdiagnosed or be taken into the hands of schools and authorities that aren't going to give them the treatment that they need.
Jessica Good: [00:39:49] I also think that in terms of there's something called self stigma, which is the process by which people with mental health disorders perceive public stigma, internalize it and then apply it to themselves. And I wonder, just in terms of how these stories are being told, if we aren't delicate enough, if we aren't giving people the whole picture and we're confining, you know, stories into an episode or into a moment or into just a characteristic, I wonder if folks with those mental illnesses will have that will internalize a stigma around it. And I think that's a quite a task for storytellers to encapsulate all of this and do it in a way that is appropriate while also confined to being entertaining. And I do think that although social stigma, which is the disapproval or discrimination against a person based on their characteristics, that I wonder, even though we have come a long ways, there is still a lot of social stigma around mental illness, and many people are afraid still to get treatment, to get medication to be seen in this way that historically has been represented to them. So I do wonder in terms of how Hollywood is keeping up. I wonder if there's always going to be a lag or if this is it or if the growth is going to continue in insofar as our culture, its growth continues.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:41:25] Yeah, those are all really important things to consider, and it's exciting to see both, you know, people who, like you are going into this industry and will have a toolkit to be able to inform creators and creatives to watch out for some of the things that you mentioned. And also, you know, so many toolkits are starting to be created that hopefully will become, you know, reference points for all writers room so that they have at least a starting point to consider from a well-informed starting point. And speaking about about you and your experience, I'd love to to talk about that for a second, if you're willing, sort of going from working in the entertainment industry to shifting into this new career in lens, looking at mental health, and just would love to know a little bit more about about that journey and decision. Absolutely.
Jessica Good: [00:42:31] Yeah. I my journey has been complicated, but in a good way because I started in entertainment and I've shifted now into counseling psychology. And initially I really wanted to, you know, impact the world in the masses. I wanted to go directly to the source of where stories were told in hopes of creating different narratives, improving stigmas not necessarily all related to mental health, but definitely criminal justice and prison reform oriented. And once I found my way to the industry, I saw the immense power and responsibility this industry has to convey stories and narratives and a lot of ideas to to many, many people. The problem is, you know, it's very difficult to talk to everyone in the world or in the country. So many people have completely different experiences. And in Hollywood, we are in a bubble. We are in our own kind of world of ideology and access and opportunity. And that with that comes a lot of responsibility. And I found that even though I felt that I was working my way to a point to potentially be able to contribute to telling these stories, I still didn't really have the on the ground experience to do so in a way that felt authentic to me. And I was someone who really enjoyed listening to people, talking to them, hearing about what influenced their perspectives, their life circumstances, their choices as a way of hopefully, you know, bringing people together in order to either change something or be unified in anything, because that is something that is rare and at least has been rare in my lifetime.
Jessica Good: [00:44:40] So I was looking for the education and expertise that I could bring into working in Hollywood. And I didn't have that. And I didn't feel like I could do that in entertainment. Whereas once I decided to go back to school, to train, to become a licensed marriage and family therapist, which is my degree now, I do feel like I am getting the experience to potentially go back to Hollywood later in in my life and tell and connect people to tell stories or to support people in telling stories in a way that are authentic to the people who are experiencing them or living them. And that has felt like a really good middle ground for me and a kind of nice synergy. And that is why I've enjoyed so much both working for Young Entertainment Activists, which is an activist organization, community led organization in Holidae in Hollywood, to bring young people together to both influence their industry in a positive way and also influence the and the world at large. Through these narratives that I can utilize my experience in that organization as well as my education in grad school to kind of begin to improve, you know, the stories that are discussing mental health, the characters that are being portrayed to provide support to people who are in the industry.
Jessica Good: [00:46:19] I mean, this industry, the entertainment industry is one of the most relentlessly. Hard working, intense, fast paced industries, and as someone who was in that 24/7, that burnout is difficult to manage and I think that a lot of people in the entertainment industry could really benefit and are benefiting. I know many people are getting engaged in therapy and different forms of of support that are helping alleviate some of that industry burden. And I do feel excited about where that industry is headed, because I do see so many of my peers and all of the people that I have worked with in the past really working on their own mental health. I think everyone in this pandemic also had to really acknowledge how they were feeling, what their experience was, and try and manage that amidst slowing down and heightening and heightening pressure, grief, loss, you know, difficulty with, you know, jobs and salaries and, you know, being paid. So I think that there has been an increasing push to examine our mental health. And that is something that I feel really excited about pursuing at this point in time.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:47:45] Well, your story is so amazing and admirable to to take such such big steps to make sure that there's intentionality behind representation and really like getting all the tools to educate yourself so that you you know, you can be responsible and live your values. And so I really I admire that so much. I'm curious. I sort of coming to a close what individuals listening to this podcast can do on their own in terms of dismantling some of these these tropes that have been so deeply ingrained in us, particularly around women and in our mental health.
Jessica Good: [00:48:35] In terms of what people can do themselves, and this is a good question, I think about this a lot, I think that one of the biggest things and this is a tough one, a tough sell sometimes is accepting yourself. I think that's a difficult thing to do. It's easy to talk about. But trying to figure out how to accept yourself makes it much easier to accept others and accept others for the variations, as I said, of the rainbow that they are because you can see that in yourself and that empathy, that ability to empathize, to understand, to listen, to have patience with yourself really applies to how you are outwardly and with others. And that bleeds into your work, that bleeds into your relationships, and that can really extend to your community and culture at large. I think that's also, you know, in conjunction with reducing self stigma. So if you are, you know, feeling depressed, if you are, you know, have a long history of anxiety, if you have experienced postpartum depression, reducing the stigma that you project onto yourself, I think is is important, but takes, again, work and time. And it's not solved overnight. It's a complex, complex process in terms of what we can do as kind of allies and folks going through this ourselves. I think one thing that we talk a lot about in in in school and just in representation is what language are you using? And I want to emphasize using person centered language, which is not referring to someone as an addict or schizophrenic or a borderline, but saying a person living with addiction or a person with schizophrenia, putting the person in the sentence in order to humanize it instead of just making a person their disorder and listening, not making assumptions.
Jessica Good: [00:50:36] So hearing when someone identifies themselves with their disorder or if they don't and maybe not necessarily asking until you've built up some trust, I think that's really important is that and we've learned especially I've learned over time, which is to not make assumptions that someone already identifies with what they're experiencing and to really hear how they speak about themselves, how they speak about the world. And you can learn a lot from that. I also think obviously derogatory language like crazy, insane, deranged, that kind of goes without saying. But, you know, I make that mistake often. It's easy to use crazy all over the place, you know, casually. And it is something that I think that we could reduce and can make a small difference. I also think in terms of Hollywood and entertainment folks who are being creators, I think that it's important to ask yourself when you are talking about mental health or thinking about it, why you're telling that story and asking yourself, is this condition being used as a plot device? Is it being used for humor? Is there a not an unnecessary stigma being depicted or is treatment at all being depicted? How is treatment being depicted? I think those are really important questions to ask yourself when creating something.
Jessica Good: [00:52:01] And it's easy to fall into the desire to entertain. You know, things can be titillating and things can be exciting. But at the end of the day, like who is that kind of who and who's at what cost? And I think that, you know, again, in terms of that stigma, in terms of the ideologies that we perpetuate, I think we can really refrain and question ourselves. And it goes across the board, whether you're talking about race, gender, class, know, disability, accessibility. This is these are the questions that we can be asking ourselves. And it applies, you know, throughout our lives. And again, it goes back to, you know, how do I tell this story? You know what what am I focusing on? Whose story am I telling and really questioning that within ourselves? Because ultimately, so many of us are going to struggle with mental disorders and mental illnesses throughout our lifetime. It is not a rare it's not a rare thing. It's a much more common thing. And the more we can talk about it, the more we can see it in each other, the more that we can validate that this feeling experience, you know, is real, the better it is for all of us in terms of getting the information, resources and support that we need to flourish.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:53:27] Those are those are really wonderful pieces of advice. Yeah, thank you for thank you for sharing that. I think those questions that you laid out that creators can consider when they're either choosing material or writing material are so simple and yet so effective, like they seem so obvious and intuitive, but, yeah, need to be reminded and have intentionality to to actually make sure that those questions are answered in our in our last few minutes. Is there anything that you were hoping we'd get to talk about that we didn't or any final thoughts that you want to make sure you share?
Jessica Good: [00:54:13] I was going to bring up just the fact that, you know, something that we haven't talked about is is in terms of women is just the experience of mothers and their caring caretakers and professionals that care for, you know, different people throughout their lives. And I think that, you know, we don't see many experiences of postpartum depression, depression on screen. But I did want to bring up the fact that most very recently, Blackish did an episode about one of the characters, postpartum depression. And although it was just one episode, it does explore the effect that this has on her and our loved ones and her going on medication. As a result, something like that is so nuanced and so pivotal and important for people to be able to see, because that is something that, you know, gets often glossed over, as, you know, just maybe a natural part of of being a mother. And I think that we often forget how much women go through in bearing children and the kind of feelings that come up throughout that, as well as caretakers who are with people constantly who are sick or dying or need a lot of support. And they are giving so much of themselves. And that can really wear on a person that can lead to a lot of depression and anxiety. And I think that we forget sometimes to acknowledge, you know, the the ways in which many women who are in a lot of different roles, you know, are are experiencing mental health issues or effects from those. And to just kind of, again, be compassionate. Listen, you know, have a bit of an understanding of those experiences, because I think those are some of the things that often often go unnoticed in women.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:56:17] Oh, I'm so grateful that you brought that up, I think it's a great point to end on, which is just in general, mental health is not a monolith and women's experiences of mental health also aren't. And and certainly, you know, motherhood, race, there's so many different pieces and nuances of of those experiences and that, yeah, just grounding in that and making sure that that's a part of the conversation, too, is. Yeah. It's so critical. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for all of your thoughtful answers. It was such a wonderful conversation.
Jessica Good: [00:56:56] Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. And I'm so glad we got to have this conversation. I will say, you know, even in my own experience, everyone, you know, we can all ask more questions. And I appreciate the space to be asked questions. And I look forward to, you know, continuing to to do so in this kind of conversation.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:57:25] If you or someone you know is experiencing a mental health emergency or needs help immediately, please call 911. Or if that doesn't feel safe for you, you can also text START to 741-741 or call 800-273-TALK for additional support and resources. Please visit theotherstory.substack.com. Thanks so much for listening to the other story and this special series for Mental Health Awareness Month. We'll see you soon and take good care.