Episode 9: Masculinity with Dr. Jackson Katz
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Jackson’s resources:
Masculinity representation resources:
If He Can See It, Will He Be It? Report from Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media
Read the transcript here:
Jackson Katz: [00:00:02] The media is the great pedagogical force of our time. It's the great teaching force of our time. So we want to understand some of these social phenomena that are happening, including violence, including abusive behavior. And sexism is part of that, obviously. Then we have to we have to look at the great you know, the role the media plays in shaping and and creating those narratives.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:00:23] You're listening to The Other Story, a podcast about the stories we live by. Each episode, we will examine a dominant narrative in our society and ask how it came to be, how it might be changed, and how the entertainment industry has played a role in reinforcing or deconstructing it. I'm your host. Jennifer Gottesfeld. Man up. Take it like a man. Boys will be boys. Boys don't cry. Don't be such a girl. These familiar phrases reinforce long standing patriarchal tropes about what it means to be a man. Those ideas about masculinity are constantly being modeled back to us in our media and are introduced into our psyches at a very young age. A recent study found that in children's television, the most prominent stereotype depicted about masculinity is of boys and men as violent or aggressors continuing to normalize these problematic narratives.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:01:20] Today, we're going to be speaking with Dr. Jackson Katz about the concept of masculinity, how it's been defined to us, and how he believes it needs to change. Jackson is a thought leader in the growing movement of men working to promote gender equity and prevent gender violence. He's co-founder of Mentors and Violence Prevention, which focuses on gender violence prevention and is the first major program of its kind to engage with sports culture and the military. In addition to his two books. Jackson has produced a slate of films examining culture, masculinity and violence, including the award winning documentary Tough Guise. And he's also appeared in numerous popular documentaries, including Misrepresentation and The Mask You Live In. At the end of this podcast, you should watch his viral TEDx talk, Violence against women is a men's issue. Jackson, it's so great to have you with me here today.
Jackson Katz: [00:02:15] Well, thanks for having me. It's great to be with you.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:02:18] So, you know, some of the some of the understandings or some of the things that I think, you know, I and folks that I know have have absorbed about masculinity. One of the things that I mentioned in the opening is about men being naturally aggressive as though it's like biological nature. And they'd love to unpack that with you a little and understand where that came from, why that's a narrative.
Jackson Katz: [00:02:45] Yeah, the best scientific thinking, the best social scientific thinking in the 21st century about the sources and causes of whether it's violence or other forms of human behavior, is it? It's a complex cocktail of all sorts of factors, environmental factors, obviously genetic and biological factors, social factors, historical context, cultural context, political and social structure. I mean, there's no way to completely take these apart and say that it's one factor that causes violence, if you will. I will say that. It would be naive for me or anybody to argue that biology and genetics has nothing to do with men's abusive behavior or men's violence, I should say, men's use of violence, because, let's face it, our our our our history as a species is a very bloody history. We've committed and mostly it's been mostly the male of the species, but have committed enormous amounts of brutality and violence, both men's violence against women, men's violence against other men. I mean I mean on a large scale, you know, wiping out whole societies and mass violence as well as interpersonal violence on a daily basis. I mean, let's be clear. So so I'm not going to disagree with somebody who says that the capacity for violence is hardwired into our species because that's factual and I think undeniable. But I would also come back with the argument that. Non-Violence is as genetically predetermined or biologically predestined as violence is, because you know what, the vast majority of humans aren't violent, including the vast majority of men. And so if you're going to if we're going to attribute violence to genetic or biological causes, I'm going to come back and say, well, non-violence is also attributed to biological and genetic forces because, you know, what are Homo sapiens brained Homo sapiens brain is big enough that we can make choices about how we organize our societies and the belief systems that we choose to sign on to the structures that we build in our societies, the economic, political, social structures, the symbolic imagery and narratives that we tell stories with.
Jackson Katz: [00:05:01] We are smart enough to to make choices about what we prefer and what we don't prefer, what we want to invite in and what we want to try to keep at bay. And so I think the argument that some people will make. Well, what do you you're just kidding yourself when you're talking about, you know, eliminating violence because violence is part of the human species forever. And and media is just a representation of that. And you think mass media cause violence? Violence has been around for centuries, for thousands of years. People will say these things as if they're the first one to think of it, or as if people like me and others who are critiquing narratives about violent masculinities are somehow oblivious to these obvious points that that that are being shared with us. And so I think it's important sometimes in discussions about these subjects to just like basically do what you're doing is beginning with the basics. It's like I'm not saying that media is causing violence to happen. I'm saying that if you want to understand in the 21st century, what are the sources of incredible levels of violence that continue to plague our species, then looking at the way that media and including entertainment media helps to shape narratives and normalize certain kinds of narratives, certain kinds of ideas about manhood or womanhood, or again, across the gender spectrum, beyond the binary.
Jackson Katz: [00:06:17] The media is the great pedagogical force of our time. It's the great teaching force of our time. So if we want to understand some of these social phenomena that are happening, including violence, including abusive behavior and sexism, as part of that, obviously, then we have to we have to look at the great, you know, role that media plays in shaping and and creating those narratives. And it's by the way, it's not a direct causal relationship. I mean, the smartest thinking, I think and it's been this way for decades now, Smart is thinking about, for example, the relationship between media and violence or violence in media and quote unquote, violence in the real world. It's not about imitation. It's not that boys or young men are, you know, playing a video game or watching a movie or listening to a music song or and then somehow going out and committing acts to imitate the narrative that they have absorbed in the lyrics or in the in the story or what have you. I mean, it's not that simple minded, OK? I mean I mean but I think the two main effects of violence in media to get specific are normalization and desensitization. So normalization, meaning what stories we're telling about what are the sort of approved kinds of characteristics for men or what are the ones that are steamed versus the ones that are denigrated? You know, that's part of it.
Jackson Katz: [00:07:34] So what are we normalizing by the stories that we're telling? What do we ridiculing or shaming in some ways, by the way, that we're representing some of these narratives in some of these stories? And then and then the other piece of it, that that's the normalization piece. And then the other piece is the desensitization and desensitization is a real phenomenon. And, you know, so many people in our society and all over the world have been desensitized by the brutality of the violent media that we've produced, mostly in the United States, but elsewhere as well for, you know, for decades now. And and there's measurable effects to that desensitization. But the reason why I'm saying normalization and desensitization is to contrast that with the simple critique of this kind of media analysis that says that, you know, I know the difference between a video game and and reality or mom. I know that, you know, the lyrics to this Eminem song is satirical. And I'm not going to go out and commit murder, you know, a murder a woman and dismember her and put her in the trunk. Because Eminem song talks about that. I know the difference between fact and fantasy. This is simple minded silliness because no thoughtful person is going to make that claim that it's like a straw person argument. You make this claim that you're you know, you're you're responding to some some argument that is not really being offered. So I would say we we just have to be a little more thoughtful about how we you know, how we have these conversations.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:09:02] Yeah, definitely. And I appreciate. You're pointing out the complexity, because that's certainly true, I think media feeds culture and culture feeds media. I would love to go back to something that you said about the normalization and and desensitization. What what are some of those ideas that are being normalized and desensitized in in media, around men and masculinity?
Jackson Katz: [00:09:33] Well, let me also say that it's a great question, but it's a big question. I mean, I would say that we have to. I mean, I feel like I have to be. Let's what's the word I'm looking for expansive and what I'm thinking about media, when I'm thinking about the role of media in shaping narratives, what manhood? If you what the media is a huge number. It's a huge industry. But, you know, art is a huge part of society culture. I mean, so it's impossible. We're by almost by definition, cherry picking because we could pick examples from, for example, Hollywood film for the past hundred years. Right. Just just just to use one example. It's important, but you could take Hollywood films for the past hundred years and realize that. There's been all kinds of interesting deconstructions of traditional notions of manhood in Hollywood films there, there's also been at the same time there's been lionization of certain traditional narratives and certain certain caricatures of old school or old style masculinity. There's been that, but there's also been complex portraits and complex portrayals and narratives that show that the that that the public face of toughness and strength is not really what's really going on. There's a lot of emotional turmoil going on in relational turmoil. Obviously, if you then take in to account, you know, race and ethnicity and sexual orientation, and there is all these intersectional social positions and and the complexities of that, it gets it gets even more complicated.
Jackson Katz: [00:11:02] So it's important. It's impossible to to make a declarative statement that, you know, Hollywood films have done X, Y and Z without accounting for the multitude of ways that masculinities are represented. Now, I would say there are certain dominant narratives and there are certain powerful you know, it's like the blockbuster narrative in the summer versus the small indie film, you know, from Europe or something, which is going to which is going to be two different things. Right. And and increasingly, for example, in Hollywood films, so many of which are based on, you know, Marvel Comics and, you know, and and comic books, which which itself we could spend the whole time talking about the pros and cons of that discourse and what that says about the tensions and challenges and anxieties in boys and young men's lives across class and race. And why those those, you know, comic book movies, if you will, have such appeal in the present moment and then how contested they are as well. Whenever you start introducing characters that are women, characters that are gay in traditional places where traditionally there have been men who have been the muscular men, who are the the iconic figures of truth and justice and setting the world right against the evil empire, what have you, that all becomes contested, right? Yes.
Jackson Katz: [00:12:21] There's a certain percentage of the population who are invested in the traditional narratives who then push back any time, you know, democratizing forces are at work trying to make it more representative of the human condition and not just reproducing one particular narrative of white male centrality. So, I mean, there's all these pieces. But so having said all that, I mean, it's a longer answer than I think you may be bargained for. But but I would say one of the things that comes up over and over again in. You know, I'm saying this as a negative way, that, quote unquote, masculinity is constructed in certain kinds of narratives, having qualified that in my preamble, right there is this notion that manhood resides in true manhood or real manhood resides in power and control. And the ability to impose your will through force or the threat of force is the essence of manhood or as the essence of manhood. And I mean, I think that's an absurdity on so many levels, but it's really powerful. And even in the 21st century, when we've left behind some of the knuckle dragging kind of, you know, caricatures of manhood, that we that we think well well, we think we've left behind some of those knuckle dragging caricatures of manhood from earlier epochs or eras.
Jackson Katz: [00:13:42] Even in the 21st century, some of that still has appeal and just, you know, data point number one, Donald Trump got seventy four or so million votes after four years in the White House. So after four years of his disastrous mismanagement and cartoonish performance of a certain throwback white masculinity. Seventy four million people still thought that he should be president again. And so the idea that somehow this this the past is behind us and we've we've moved on and we have more sophisticated understandings about, you know, about gender, about men and women and, you know, and the spectrum of sexual and gender identity and race as marbled into that. The idea that we've evolved so that that stuff is seen. Some of the older knuckle dragging stuff is seen as obsolete, I think is a little overstated because we're still dealing with this right now as we speak. Right. We're still dealing with this right now in our society and. But this notion of power and control as associated with manhood and the definition of strength as connected to physical force or the threat of it to gain or maintain your power or your control. That's one of the most negative and pernicious definitions of masculinity in the world today.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:15:05] Yeah. Oh, thank you, thank you for that and I you know, you're a Marvel example is a good Segway into just understanding. So one of the goals of of a part of this podcast is for folks who work in the entertainment industry to be able to notice in scripts that they read or and things that they're developing, that they may be perpetuating some of these problematic, dominant narratives. And so I'd love just some illustrative examples of how Hollywood has played a role in perpetuating and reinforcing these narratives. You know, and in tough guys, you really give an overview back from like the Westerns and John Wayne through, you know, more contemporary examples. And so just helping people understand when they see things, what they're looking at.
Jackson Katz: [00:15:59] Sure. And can I say I didn't say this right at the beginning, but I think it's great what you're what you're doing. I think this and I'm pleased that I can be part of it, because I think I think the creatives like in Hollywood, the writers, the the producers of Greenlight projects, the the writers who write the narrative, the scripts, you know, the directors have enormous cultural power, enormous influence, not just in the United States, but all over the world, you know, and, you know, Hollywood being the image production factory of the entire world, not just the United States. And so the narratives that come out, the storytelling, the, you know, the art and the cinematic art in particular and television and, you know, music, I mean, all these different industries, but are incredibly influential at shaping sort of norms around the world, especially around in the case of my work around gender, race and sexuality. And and so it's it's it's really important what you're doing, which is to say, you know, opening up some dialogue and some space for for the for those folks who are engaged in that process to take a step back and think, you know, take a deeper dive into thinking about what they're doing and the implications of what they're doing in a positive in a negative way. Because I don't I don't want to be all negative.
Jackson Katz: [00:17:15] I mean, because all kinds of brilliant stuff coming out of, you know, you know, the scriptwriters because I'm a I'm a writer. So I'm like I'm biased towards the writer because, you know, the printed page, the blank page is the is the biggest sort of frontier. And, you know, directors are can be brilliant and take take the printed page and make it whole, you know, and actors are brilliant and taking the words off the page, but nothing starts until the first word is typed on that page, you know, anyhow. Anyhow, so. Well I think one of my because I deal with violence so much as my work is about violence. And by the way, anything that's really examining violence is examining men and masculinity because men commit the overwhelming majority of violence. It's not a debatable point. Men have been perpetrators, approximately 90 percent of violent crime, whether the victims are women or men or themselves, because, you know, suicide is violence turned inward. I mean, gun violence overwhelmingly perpetrated by men and young men. This is just a fact, you know. And so. One of the one of the areas within well, within my sort of examination of media. Narrative's is really about violent masculinities, but even that category is large, but when it comes to your question about like Hollywood film and what's the role of Hollywood from one piece, I'll just give you one sort of thread, just as a as a as a I don't know, as a case study is like war movies.
Jackson Katz: [00:18:43] Right. War movies. And and the difference between, say, the John Wayne era, whether it's whether you say that's the 40s and 50s or into the 60s, the John Wayne era or the John Ford era of, you know, of war movies versus the the the the Steven Spielberg era or the era of the of the of the directors who came of age in the 60s, you know, late 60s and 70s is profound. And I'll give you an example of concretely of of the difference, like say look at you look at Sands to on GMA or or other John Wayne films, which there's a certain heroism associated with the with the with the narrative of of the of the men engaged in battle. And it's kind of good, a good versus evil. Generally speaking, you know, I mean, I know there's some complications and there are exceptions to what I'm saying, but. There was a general sense that the US was always on the right side of right, the fighting men, it was almost always men, you know, we're doing the right thing, that they would suck it up and, you know, taking their lumps for the, you know, for God and country and and all that is pure. And there was very little real suffering shown on screen and very little vulnerability shown on screen because it was about it was about sucking it up.
Jackson Katz: [00:20:02] Right. Take it like a man, you know, that kind of thing. And then you have this generation that came of age after the Vietnam War and the Vietnam War was an unknown or through the Vietnam War. And then after the Vietnam War was an unbelievable moment and a shift in American history, because, number one, it was the first war that we. Lost, I mean, and I'm old enough to remember growing up as a child, as a child, I was a child in the 60s here in the United States, had never lost a war where we're the baddest asses on the on the planet. We've never lost the war. And there was so much denial about what was happening in Vietnam, in part because we weren't winning the war and we didn't win the war. And it was an absolute disaster. And the Vietnam War and the men who came of age and there were women, too. But I mean, obviously the major directors of that era were men in terms of the war movies and the, you know, and such started making films. And now I'm talking about the in the in the 90s and I'm jumping forward because there were there were films in the 80s that reproduced some of that stuff a little more like like the Rambo films.
Jackson Katz: [00:21:08] And, you know, we would have won the war if we just allowed our men to just fight, because how are you going to win a war with one hand tied behind your back and and, you know, this this kind of thing and the one heroic man who's going to fight against the bureaucracy, he's going to fight against the wimpy politicians and he's going to go win the war single handedly. I mean, it's it's it's a little more complicated, but not that much more complicated. The narrative I mean, that was a Reagan era, like a reassertion of American manhood in the Reagan era, after the Vietnam era, when when, by the way, some of the great Vietnam films were showing the vulnerability coming home, showing some of the great some of the great films of that era, including in the late 1970s, showed the vulnerability of veterans returning and having all kinds of emotional and psychological problems and relational problems and PTSD and everything else. I mean, by the way, born on the Fourth of July, I mean another example. I mean, the actual man, Ron Kovic, that born on the Fourth of July was based on was a vet, was a Vietnam veteran, a guy who went off to serve in the Marine Corps, gung ho to serve his country because he had bought all the mythology of the John Wayne era and his father's era, which is, you know, honestly is my father's year.
Jackson Katz: [00:22:15] But World War Two era. And again, a lot of those men were great men, and they they sacrificed great, great things, including, you know, hundreds of thousands who died fighting fascism in Europe. So and in the Pacific. And I respect them greatly. But buying into this notion that, like Ron Kovic did, Tom Cruise's character and born on the Fourth of July, that somehow it's all about heroes, heroism and, you know, fighting good versus evil. And you're going to be supported and you're going to be doing the right thing. And then he comes home and he's wounded and he's you know, he's he's, you know, a paraplegic and the kind of disregard he was treated with, not just by antiwar protesters, I think that's a bit overstated, but by the society at large, including the the political establishment that sent him off, you know, to to, you know, to kill or be killed. Anyhow, when Steven Spielberg and his generation and that includes Oliver Stone, but I mean, started making their own films about war, like think about Private Saving Private Ryan versus John Wayne's films. Saving Private Ryan was a brilliant piece of work. And one of the things that was brilliant about it was that it showed that you can be heroic and vulnerable at the same time.
Jackson Katz: [00:23:28] In other words, you don't have to create this cartoonish heroism where everybody just sucks it up. A real man just takes it. It's like some of the scenes where they shot where Spielberg captured Tom Hanks, his character. Not in front of the troops, not in front of his troops, but on his own to the side, if you will, his hands were shaking. He was filled with anxiety. He was a teacher from some small town. And here he is. In this war situation, we have a responsibility of life and death for all these people around him. And he was I mean, he was he was scared. I mean, he was anxious. He was vulnerable, but he sucked it up when he had to. And by the way, same thing. And that opening scene, which everybody says a lot of people say a lot of cultural theorists and others will say that the opening scene and Saving Private Ryan, when when the troops were landing on the beaches of Normandy, changed forever. How how how narrow it narratives about war have to be told because you can no longer have this heroic, you know, you know, you know, invulnerable men, you know, clashing with each other on the battlefield. Because the reality is guys are, you know, honestly, they're defecating on themselves. They're pissing on themselves. They're scared shitless because they're about to come into gunfire, which a lot of them are going to die and they know it and they do it anyways.
Jackson Katz: [00:24:43] But which I think is even more heroic. But I think it's not incidental or coincidental in any way that the men, these these directors and the writers who came of age. During and after Vietnam were the ones to start really getting honest about what is really happening because think about think about Vietnam in this other way, right? It's the first, I believe, the first war that the monument to the war. In other words, the way that we as a society sort of valorise the the fallen and valorise the you know, the the the the war itself. The Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C., is not at all this muscular statement of power and strength. And, you know, the United States conquered, you know, you know, evil. It's it's built into the ground and it's just it's like really understated. And it lists the names of the people who died. And it was, by the way, you know, we designed it a twenty one year old Asian American woman who was an art. And she was an undergraduate, I believe, at Yale. Twenty one years old. And it was controversial at the time because it wasn't heroic. Because it was. Honest like this is about this is about sacrifice. It's about loss.
Jackson Katz: [00:26:00] It's about pain. And by the way, the United States, let's be honest, did inflict enormous amounts of pain and suffering and death on. The the Peasant Society of Vietnam, I mean, we unleashed unbelievable violence on the people of Vietnam, in addition, fifty eight thousand Americans died there during the war and I think more than that have died by suicide since the war. So anyways, the the monument to all of this was, I think, emblematic of what I'm saying. And these filmmakers themselves that that I just referenced earlier and others were. Coming of age with that sensibility and that they weren't going to tell a fake story anymore, they weren't going to make a heroic version of true events, they were going to start being more honest. And I think honesty in storytelling, especially around men's lives and the complexity of men's lives and breaking down this sort of statuesque manhood, heroic manhood is itself a world changing act. And I think I think that's been going on now and for, you know, for a number of decades. There are kind of trends. There are there are heroic sizing of certain kinds of, you know, traditional, archetypal, you know, strong men. But I think the more honest and the more honestly thoughtful and sophisticated and brilliant art is is one that shows the vulnerability is alongside the the strength and the projection of strength.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:27:25] Hmm. Well, that's that's a great sort of segue into the second part of this conversation, which is understanding. So we've gotten a little bit of a sense from you of what those dominant narratives are and that the change that's starting to happen. What what does deconstructing these old tropes look like? And you started to talk to that in your last answer, but I'd love to dig into that more.
Jackson Katz: [00:27:52] Well, I mean, it really resides in honest portrayals of the complexities of masculinity or masculinities, as well as femininity and femininity. I mean I mean, I think one I guess another way to think about all of this sort of a lens through which to examine this. Does it is a feminist theory, it's called standpoint theory, and it's it's. It's in the fancy terms, in philosophy, it's it's an epistemology, it's a way of thinking, a way of knowing and how we know and and it's a theory of how we know and how we learn and how we're taught and and how information is transmitted. Ideology is transmitted and how. Standpoint theory suggests that the subject position of a person is going to influence what they see and what they observe. Because. There have they have a different standpoint than, for example, for example, women have a different standpoint than men in a patriarchal society. So they're going to the lens through the lens through which women see events is going to be different. And I'm making a general statement then the lens through which a man would see the same events, because your standpoint, your subject position makes a huge difference in terms of what you notice, what you don't notice. And I mean, this is this is true, for example, with whiteness, like people of color and, you know, African-Americans. I mean, one of the things that's going on right now, critical race theory being a being a subject of contention.
Jackson Katz: [00:29:25] And it's a huge sort of talking point on Fox News Channel and other right wing talk radio and everything else, that critical race theory. We have to defeat critical race theory. It's racist. It's horrible. And what it is, is it's actually asking people to think critically about how racism is built into the structures of the society, especially the the law and legal practice and legal doctrine. And and it's I mean, started out as a legal doctrine, not just the generalized way of looking at, you know, race and racism, but and how it's threatening to certain established power when you start looking critically at the workings of that power, especially if that power is illegitimate and and which I think, you know, racism by definition is illegitimate power. If you believe in democracy now, if you don't believe in democracy, then maybe it's not illegitimate. But if you believe in democracy, it's illegitimate anyhow. So the. Standpoint theory would suggest that women have a perspective on. Men and male culture, like critical race theory and other sort of anti-racist theories, would have people of color say, for example, African-American people would have a perspective on whiteness that a lot of white people wouldn't have because part of power is being is not being forced to be part of the the privilege of having power is the ability to go unexamined or lacking introspection.
Jackson Katz: [00:30:53] And so when people who are in the subordinated group, like women in the in the, you know, the gender system or the gender order or people of color in the racial system or people who are LGBT and not hetero normative in the in the sexual orientation and gender identity, you know, sphere, when those folks are looking at the same, you know, stories or say media or same quote unquote reality, they're seeing different things. And so I think one of the things that has to happen for us to get healthy, I mean, I think as a society and to tell truer and more honest stories is, you know, you have to have people with different perspectives telling the stories. So I personally think I passionately believe because you can hear my voice that it's not anti male to do any of this. This is actually pro male. It's like if you care about men. I mean, men have been killing each other and brutalizing each other as well as doing that to women. So many men have such limited psychological, emotional and relational lives, in part because they've absorbed these narrow teachings and narrow sort of understandings and now socialization about manhood. So the idea that somehow getting women, for example, behind the camera, getting women in the in the in the writing rooms and getting women writing scripts and, you know, all that is somehow going to like, oh, wow, that's a you know, it's a feminist movement that's going to take away power from men.
Jackson Katz: [00:32:16] And, you know, we could sort of resist it, whether it's active or passive resistance. I mean, it's so ignorant to me because some of the narratives about men's lives that women are and will be telling over the next, say, decades is going to help men so much because it's going to give an insight into men's behavior that they didn't have, that we didn't have ourselves. And is that is that harmful? I don't think it's harmful. I think it's good. And getting more people of color behind the camera, writing the scripts in the TV, writing rooms, well, there'll be new and deeper narratives and including, by the way, narratives about white men. And it doesn't mean it's going to be exactly the same. I mean, I think there are plenty of white men who can write brilliant narratives about white men. And in fact, I think my work I think by being a white man, I've had great insight into my own militia. I mean, the culture, the various influences, you know, it doesn't mean you have to, you know, be a person, you know, you know, a woman or a person of color or what have you to be able to see.
Jackson Katz: [00:33:21] But you see differently and you and you, generally speaking, you see differently, I mean, the old cliche is the fish are the last to see the water, right? Which is because it's just it's just like so a lot of people who are white men, because they've enjoyed the privilege of being white and being men, and especially if they're heterosexual, occupying those positions, they're not often forced to be introspective. And they and then so when they hear critiques, they'll often be either denying it flat out or they'll be trying to discredit the people are often their critiques because they see it as a threat. And I think I think it's stronger, actually. It's it's a it's an act of strength to say, you know what, I think you're right. I think it is important to look inward. And I think, by the way, vulnerability, the idea that somehow vulnerability is weakness. I mean, this is this is this is so ass backwards. It's like like like Donald Trump, for example, who was never fit to be like dog catcher, much less president of United States. I'll just say it. And I'm talking about his politics. I'm talking about as a human being, as a person. He was never fit to hold public office in a democratic society for one second.
Jackson Katz: [00:34:30] OK, I'm sorry, but Donald Trump would be like, I admit, weakness. You never admit weakness. You never admit you made a mistake because then you'll be weak. This is to me, it's literally out of a textbook of a caricature of a discredited idea of manhood. It's so silly and ridiculous. I mean. And yet. That's representing a certain kind of old school idea, and I would say it's like the opposite. In other words, if you're strong, if you're confident and you make a mistake, you say, shoot, I made a mistake. I wish I hadn't done that. Or, you know what? Tell me how I could do it better next time or I'm sorry that I screwed up or I'm sorry that I offended you. I'm sorry that I did this. That, to me is the opposite of weakness. The weakness is the inability to admit vulnerability. And so I think to the extent that storytellers in Hollywood can write scripts where men and direct, you know, and act where men, including white heterosexual men, acknowledge vulnerability and are not shamed for it, are not ridiculed for it, don't suffer some horrible fate for it. But but, but, but are also strong. That's really powerful, and I think it's I use that one example of Tom Hanks, his character in, you know, Saving Private Ryan, there's lots of examples, you know, look at Matt Damon's character in Good Will Hunting, I mean, which is near and dear to my heart as a Bostonian.
Jackson Katz: [00:35:58] And and Matt Damon fan. I mean, it's like good will hunting. He was it was that was that was a sophisticated examination of the difference between a man's outward face, which is he's really smart and he's really tough. But underneath he's roiling. He's emotionally wrought. He's he's you know, he's vulnerable and he can't express it. And what happens, his love for a woman and her love for him is what is you know, is what is ultimately redemptive for him. Now, again, that's that's also a problem because it puts the burden on women. If the only way that men can become fully human is in relation to women, it puts an added burden on women, relationally. And this is not fair. So I'm not saying that this should be the way it is, although I do think it's true that a lot of men have come to myself included, let me just say, a more sophisticated self understanding through relationships and through relationships with women in particular, you know, and other men, but certainly with women and good. You know, thank you for to that to women for that. But. Showing this, telling stories that include these elements is incredibly and can be incredibly transformative.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:37:09] Yeah, no, I love that. And having those concrete examples is is really helpful for folks to be able to see. I think, you know, often we talk about narrative change in a very theoretical way and being able to point to examples and say, here's, you know, here's what it looks like when you perpetuate a dominant narrative and here's what it looks like when you challenge that and deconstruct, it really helps people to have something to grasp onto. I'd love for you to talk a little bit more just about your work and your research. And experience both in the media, in the media realm and entertainment realm, but also more broadly, since, you know, you cover quite a lot.
Jackson Katz: [00:37:59] It's true. I mean, I'm my problem with in life in general. I mean, if I can be self disclose, just I just don't feel like there's enough time. I feel like I'm getting old and it's like, oh, my God, there's so much. And I mean, we live in an incredible time. And the the outpouring of insight, for example, the feminism is like so unbelievably important. I mean, by the way, I'll say that and I hope this makes it into the final cut. You know, like so many men in particular, not exclusively have this sort of caricature of feminism. It's like it's like they just think it's like a male bashing thing or it's like a it's just all about women trying to, you know, trying to, like, make it in the world of men. And they and they often at the expense of men. And I'm simple minded, kind of caricatures. Feminism is one of the most important social movements in the history of the human species. It's not it's not subject to one. It's not like one decade or a couple of decades or, you know, generations. This is a tectonic shift that's been happening globally for a couple of hundred years. It's going to continue into the future. It's it's enormously influential, but not just in the lives of women, which is important in and of itself. In other words, women have come so far have a long way to go. I mean, let's let's be clear. We have a long way to go, even in this society to to get to gender equality where like decades, if not hundreds of years away.
Jackson Katz: [00:39:23] But around the world, it's you know, it's very variable. But women in a multiracial, multi-ethnic sense have made enormous progress over the past several decades. And and we'll continue to do so in so many different areas. But feminism is also a liberatory philosophy for men. It's a liberatory way of understanding how men have been diminished by, you know, the strictures of patriarchal culture and the idea that somehow it's anti male. It's it just again, it doesn't pass the most basic test for me as a as a you know, as a common sense person or as an intellectual, it's ridiculous. So I think that going forward in my work, I mean, one of the things that I've been trying to do, I should say, going forward in going looking backward in my work, is is trying to use sort of feminist insights to, in more complicated ways, understand men, both as individuals, but also, you know, in societies and the way the societies are structured and organised and and honestly. If we're going to survive as a species, we have to have fundamental changes. I mean, this is all, for example, connected people. Oftentimes they don't make these connections, right? I mean, I think that's one of the roles that people like me have to play, is to make the connections for people. But like, it's not just about interpersonal behavior. We're talking about climate change. I mean, climate change is implicated in the gender order in profound ways. And the way that I'm looking at it is, you know what the single biggest force in climate denial is in the world? It's white conservative men in the United States of America are by far the biggest impediment globally to climate change, changing policies around climate change.
Jackson Katz: [00:41:07] And I'm a white American man and I feel like that's my responsibility to, you know, to think to think about and make that make that connection. Why are conservative white men at the forefront of climate denial and how is that linked to their gender ideology, which, by the way, I know this is not the subject. I mean, I know that this we have so many other things to talk about. But my work is about, like, you know, you were asking about is is about trying to understand all of this and trying to understand then in the media aspect of it, how media culture helps to produce and reproduce ideologies or belief systems that either perpetuate systems of inequality or injustice or sabotage or subvert those systems in a way that can get us to meet to to be more democratic, small d democratic. And, you know, that's the Enlightenment project is increasing democratization like. So instead of it just being all white men, the only people who can make decisions are wealthy white men. It's like the last couple of hundred years have been chipping away at that progressively, you know, in fits and starts, I should say. You know, there's there's periods of advancement, periods of retrenchment, you know, backlash then followed by progress, followed by backlash. And I guess my what I'm trying to do is think about.
Jackson Katz: [00:42:31] The narratives about masculinity and masculinities in the mainstream media culture and how to help people think about them as connected to all this, and media literacy is a big part of it. And now it's being being media literate, which is to say, instead of young people or older people being robotic consumers who just, you know, go through the turnstile, pay their money or download the app or, you know, turn on the streaming video or whatever and just robotically experience the entertainment. It's like, what about, you know, using your full brain? It doesn't mean you can't enjoy it doesn't mean you can't be entertained. But, you know, use your brain to think about how this is influencing you, how this is influencing the society around you, the people around you, you know, and we have a long way to go. And can I just just one other piece of sort of data point, Jen? Yeah. You know, my work in this area, which is to say the area of sort of media literacy and, you know, media theory and such is indebted to the pioneering feminist media literacy work of Jean Kilbourne and other women who since the 1970s have been looking at images of women and narratives about women in the media. Jean Kilbourne in particular, was looking at advertising. And, you know, her first slide lecture back when we had things called slide lectures with a Kodak carousels. You know, this is before PowerPoint. You know, like she made this film called Killing US Off.
Jackson Katz: [00:44:01] It was a slide lecture that became a film called Killing a softly advertising images of Women. And I remember as a young guy, like a 19 year old, I saw her speak at my university. She came to speak and I went to see her. And I remember thinking, this is really important. Like this is really interesting, like connecting the ways in which women were being represented in advertising as much thinner, younger, waifish, girlish and much whiter than real women in the real world. And what implications does that have for women's lives, both in terms of their own self-image and in terms of, you know, men's consumption of those images and the way that that reinforces certain ideas that men have about women? You know, brilliant stuff. And then in my 80 in my eighties, I'm sorry, I hope I don't have to say that for for quite a while. But in the in the eighties when I was when I was really beginning in my I was in my 20s when I was really at the at the at the foundational stages of my work about men's violence against women, which is a lot of my work addresses men's violence against women. I was thinking, OK, why are so many men assaulting women? Why is this a huge problem in our species, even as late as, you know, the late 20th century? I mean, really, what's going on? And I realized, by the way, early on when I was a college student, this is a huge problem, you know, and this is global and it's a first order magnitude problem in the species.
Jackson Katz: [00:45:23] Men's violence against women, sexual assault, domestic violence, harassment. Anyhow, why is this happening? And then what is the role? I was thinking, what is the role of media in shaping narratives about manhood? That was an analogous, if you will, roll to what Jean Kilbourne, another feminists were looking at in terms of the narratives about femininity that were influencing women and such. And I was thinking, OK, let's examine this. And I started doing research. You know, when I was in grad school in the early 90s, I was looking at this as a, you know, sort of research subject. I mean, I was an activist, but I was doing research and it was like very few people had been looking into this. Very few people, not not nobody, but very few people. And which makes sense on one level, because when people hear the word gender or they hear the phrase gender in media, they almost immediately think it means women in media narratives about women in media. And if you're going to look at gender issues in media, that means you're looking at women's narratives in media. And again, this is how dominance works. The men are unexamined. Like the idea is men are just the human universal human subject. We don't really have a gender. We're just people. But even the act by the the act of saying that men have a gender, a gender that is constructed that is that is shaped, that that is taught, that is reinforced is itself a political act.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:46:43] You hit on so many of the different areas that I that I wanted to make sure that we talked about today, I think for for sort of closing thoughts, looking towards the future and at different points. You've you've talked about pieces of this, but what are some of the things that you're seeing that you're excited about going forward? And also, what are some of the red flags or things that you are concerned about as we sort of go into this new frontier of of storytelling, of of narratives and narrative change?
Jackson Katz: [00:47:19] And that's a that's a great question and an important question. Well. I have to say, I'm very concerned that there is a significant number of white men. In our society and elsewhere, but in our society who are drawn to. Heroic narratives that Segway very easily with authoritarian and even fascistic political agendas, and I think that the base of fascism, for example, in the 20th century and now in the 21st century is white men and white men who in Europe, in the United States. Let's let's let's get specific about that, like in Europe, the United States, but in the United States, who feel like they're losing something, who feel like the world is passing them by, who feel like their centrality in the culture is diminishing, and who are angry about it and resentful about it and are willing to use violence to get back what they think is rightfully theirs. And I think that, for example, the January 6th insurrection is an example of this is, by the way, of the people arrested, I believe 93 percent are white. Eighty six percent are men. And by the way, in the mainstream narrative about the insurrection, the generation on January 6th. Yeah, vast majority of discussion is about race and and how it's white people who are unsettled by the increasing racial diversity of the country, the increasing assertion of African-American political and social, you know, strength and such like that. And that's incredibly important part of what's happening. I'm not saying it isn't, but it's not just that.
Jackson Katz: [00:49:04] It's about men, not just white people. It's about white men. And yet the men gets left out. And by the way, it gets left out of progressive and left wing discourse, not just on Fox News Channel or in right wing media. It gets left out in many discussions between sophisticated people on the progressive side of the house, which is to me, it's not acceptable. It's not just about race, it's about gender and race. And so, for example, the Make America Great again, which is Ronald Reagan's a Ronald Reagan slogan that Donald Trump borrowed, make America great again. To me from the beginning of me hearing it was I read it as put white men back on center stage again. And I think what's been happening is a number of white men are being drawn. And this is talk about narratives are being drawn to this narrative that they need to reclaim something that they have lost through this heroic enactment of, you know, revolution or what have you. And, you know, this concept of LARP, you know, live action, role play, it's like that's what these guys were doing on January six. And so don't tell me that that wasn't running in the heads of a lot of these guys. I again, I'm not saying necessarily consciously, but was what it was running in through the head of a lot of these men, this like heroic drama that they are the star of or they're part of this larger sort of force that's that's rising up and and taking back control of, you know, America, if you will.
Jackson Katz: [00:50:35] And and it's all playing out in front of the cameras. I mean, some people have commented, well, there's all these cell phone cameras. They were taking pictures. That's the era that we live in. This is all about media. And you can't just aggregate media narratives from real life because it's all melded together. And by the way, Ronald Reagan himself, who was who who did a ton of who his administration from eighty one to eighty nine, did a lot towards bringing entertainment values right center stage in political life. And he wasn't the first, but he was certainly one of the most influential. And Donald Trump updated that because Donald Trump wasn't from Hollywood, Donald Trump was from reality TV and Donald Trump, from the earliest days of his career, had figured out a way to create a narrative about himself in the tabloids and then in reality TV that that constructed himself as a larger than life figure, as a character playing the role of businessman, you know, political hero who doesn't have political experience, but who has a vision for the country and is strong enough to stand up for. I mean, he's so clearly Donald Trump, a product of media culture. And these men who are drawn to these right wing political movements are also themselves steeped in these kinds of narratives and these kinds of stories. And I think so. I think what we see on the progressive side of the house, those of us who are both offended and horrified by the rise of the right in this country and in Europe, in other words, fascism.
Jackson Katz: [00:52:10] I mean, let's be clear. This is like I mean, thoughtful people in nineteen thirty two and, you know, in Berlin were like, oh my God, we got to do something about this. I mean, this is you can see what's happening and you can see. And what I would say is people on the progressive side of the house, feminists and you know and and progressive activists and thinkers and anything else I think we have to do is we have to create narratives. One of the things we have to do I'm not saying the only thing we have to create narratives where white men and young white. Men can feel a part of the progressive social changes that are happening in our society, because if they only hear from the progressives and the left and feminists that white male white men are toxic, white men are the source of all the problems we need to push white men off of stage. They had too much power and too much privilege. And we don't want we have no time for them anymore. And on the one hand, if they hear that, I guess it's a bit of a caricature. And on the other hand, they're hearing from the right. We welcome you, we support you, we appreciate you, in fact, your people, the white male, as the one who created Western civilization, who created all the great art, and we embrace you if they are hearing it in this very simple minded way, which, by the way, many of them are hearing it in that very simple minded way, then guess what they're going to have? They're going to be drawn to the right.
Jackson Katz: [00:53:33] And guess what? The white male dominance on the right is why progressives and feminists and others have such an uphill climb to just get the most basic social policy passed to the United States Congress. White men overwhelmingly have supported the Republican candidate, even as the party has moved to the right. Over the past generation and if we don't figure out this one right, it's going to take decades before we have the racial and ethnic diversity that we that we're going to need in terms of passing. So, you know, lots of really progressive social legislation and anything else that. I think there's a better way to do it, which is we have to explicitly tell white men and young white men that there is a role for them in the future. There is a role for men and white men to play in a diverse society, in diverse workplaces and communities, in relationships. And we welcome that. And it's not doesn't mean it's not going to be difficult and it doesn't mean you have to don't have to give up some some, you know, unfair privileges. Of course, you do have to give up some unfair, but you're going to also gain a lot like like being a whole human being.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:54:40] Yeah. That's a great thought to end on, I think. Yeah, I really appreciate that, just the thinking around how men need to look at themselves and ask them, particularly white men. And having that portrayed back to them in the media, I think the modeling of those characteristics is what's going to enable a lot of that to happen is when you show it, people start to realize that it's something that they can do, that it's OK, that it's that it's safe. Well, thank you. Thank you so, so much. Yeah. This has been such a great conversation. I'm really excited to be able to share it with people. Particularly because I think it's one of the things that is that I found is at least talked about surprisingly and and sadly so. Yes. Thank you so much for your time.
Jackson Katz: [00:55:39] Well, thank you very much for having me and for having this conversation and for doing your podcast and for providing this service and for taking the leadership to open up space for these kinds of conversations. I think it's great what you're doing. So thank you.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:55:53] Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to the other story for additional support and resources, please visit theotherstory.substack.com.