Episode 4: Youth mental health narratives with John MacPhee
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Read the transcript here:
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:00:00] This May, in honor of Mental Health Awareness Month, The Other Story is releasing a series of episodes examining the dominant narratives around mental health and in partnership with MTV and a coalition of organizations from around the country. The Other Story is supporting the first ever Mental Health Action Day on May 20th by sharing resources on actions you can take to care for your mental health and support others in their mental health journey. Head over to our substance at theotherstory.subsack.com to find all the resources there. And a step that we're going to take today is to try to better understand the role of media and dominant narratives around the topic of youth and mental health.
John MacPhee: [00:00:45] We know that from the emergence of the first mental illness symptoms which happen in half of people by the age of 14, right from that first emergence to the time somebody gets an accurate diagnosis and starts getting good care, it's eight to 10 years. And so if you think about that right, these are the teen years, then Hollywood could have an enormous positive impact.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:01:09] You're listening to The Other Story, a podcast about the stories we live by. Each episode, we will examine a dominant narrative in our society and ask how it came to be, how it might be changed, and how Hollywood has played a role in reinforcing or deconstructing it. I'm your host, Jennifer Gottesfeld. According to the National Alliance on Mental Illness, one in five American youth experience a mental health condition, but as many as half will not seek out support. The way young people are conditioned to understand and respond to their experiences is often influenced by the media. So in programs about young people glamorize suicide, mock asking for help or delegitimize their feelings as being, quote, hormonal, it can leave anyone, and especially youth feeling shame, isolated and prone to conceal what they're experiencing for fear of ridicule and judgment. Today, we're going to be speaking with John MacPhee about the narrative surrounding the mental health of young people and how they're portrayed in the media. We're going to try to better understand how those narratives leave a lasting impression and what work is being done to reverse some of those problematic tropes.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:02:28] John is executive director and CEO of the Jed Foundation, a nonprofit that partners with high schools and colleges to strengthen their mental health, substance misuse and suicide prevention programs. I should note here that the Jed Foundation is one of the amazing coalition partners that's helping to catalyze mental health action day. John brings 25 years of leadership and management experience from both business and nonprofit settings and his role prior to his work at Jed, he served in a number of executive positions in the pharmaceutical industry and in 2016 received the Alan Rosenfield Alumni Award for Excellence in the Field of Public Health from the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University, where he also earned his MPH in addition to his MBA from Stern at NYU. John, it's an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here.
John MacPhee: [00:03:16] Thank you for having me on.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:03:17] I like to start these conversations by first understanding what are the dominant tropes that exist around youth mental health so that we can start to be able to examine them more closely.
John MacPhee: [00:03:32] Sure. So there are several in terms of the dominant tropes. You know, one is an illness framework. Right. As opposed to a recovery or or a health framework where mental illness is thought of as being very serious and scary and almost fatalistic in its in its presentation and mixed with this is a is a shame based narrative. Right. That it's that it's a weakness. It's something to be ashamed of, something not to not to talk about. So all of these things are interwoven in a way that creates a very damaging narrative, dominant narrative around mental health and use.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:04:19] And where where did this originate from? Why why do they exist as they do and particularly around around youth?
John MacPhee: [00:04:27] Well, you know, a couple things to add in. This, I think answers both questions a little bit. You know, so when we think about today and the dominant narratives going further, one of those is that youth are experiencing a mental health crisis and that rates of anxiety, depression, et cetera, are the highest they've been in generations. And so that is also contributing to a narrative that somehow youth today are less resilient or have less developed coping skills or more fragile in some way. And and there's a narrative that social media and digital is are contributing to that in terms of how did this originate or where did originate. Part of it is because the data do, in fact, show that there are rays, rising rates of anxiety and depression, and we can go deeper into that. But what I would say is I view the the origin as just being deeply rooted stigmas that we have in our society around mental illness. And I see that is the root cause. You know, they're multigenerational. They've been with us a long time. And I see that as the root cause.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:05:43] So looking at Hollywood and sort of its role in perpetuating some of those narratives, I'm sure they existed a long time before we had media or at least televised media. But I'm curious what you've seen in terms of the types of content that are that have been in the past and continue to maybe contribute to some of these narratives.
John MacPhee: [00:06:05] Sure. Well, first first is this issue of how common is mental illness. Right. And struggles with mental health. And you said it in your opening, one out of five people struggle in any given year with a mental health condition. So we're talking about lots of us. All of us. Right. And this is another one of the dominant tropes that somehow it's presented as more rare than that. Right. Or less common than that. And in fact, it was a really nice study done by the Annenberg Center and the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention and the David and Lura Lovell Foundation, where they looked at 2016, 2017 film and television. And what they found was that it's uncommon for there to be presentations of characters with mental health conditions in film and TV. Right. It was less than two percent in films, I think 7% on TV, and yet one out of five out of all people have a mental health condition. So I want to start there and say it's not being represented anywhere near the way that it should be, you know, as represented in our society. But then when it is represented, it's represented in a in criminal narrative's violence narratives. Right. Think of shows like Criminal Minds and how often, you know the perpetrator is having a psychotic episode or has had some kind of trauma. There are shame narratives as well. And, you know, stories about how the mental health system itself is scary or unhelpful. Right. And those are very unhelpful narratives because they may dissuade, you know, dissuade seeking seeking help when in the study that I just referenced, they actually analyzed what were the most common descriptors in films and in television around mental health. And no one was crazy. And then freak, weirdo, weird and psycho. Right. So that gives you like a really good picture, you know, of this. And almost half the characters were perpetrators of violent crime. So, you know, Hollywood has an enormous opportunity to do good here, but there is a legacy of doing harm.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:08:24] Yeah. I mean, I remember I'm a child of the 90s, and I actually I think this might have been in the same study that you're referencing, which I I had looked at in preparation for our talk today, but that most of the mental health portrayals during that time were like juvenile delinquents, that that was like a very prominent story of that time. And I think the you know, the millennial generation really inherited that. And that is something that has continued to sort of stay in our psyche as we think about about mental health. I'm curious how youth today, some of the tropes that they're seeing, how much of that has carried over and into into what they're seeing today and how much has changed.
John MacPhee: [00:09:13] Yeah, it's so it's changing, you know, and there are several examples of how it's changing for good, right. So, you know, whether it's it's Grey's Anatomy and Dr. DeLuca and, you know, bipolar, his bipolar disorder. SWAT, you know, did an episode of with the suicidal character and his friends and his co-workers figured it out and they really mobilized and were able to find him and get him help. Grown-ish has a great episode on the child and mental challenges of college students. So there's you we're starting to see several examples that are really, really well done. And I think that that is a a window into what is about to happen. You know, with groups like Viacom and MTV, as you mentioned, the Mental Health Action Day in action, an entire coalition around mental health storytelling that so many great media companies have joined. So I'm very optimistic about where we're heading and what what Hollywood would be able to do to reduce stigma and correct these narratives
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:10:22] That it is really exciting to see, to see the work that's being done and also recognizing there's so much work still ahead. Well, I want to rewind a little to talk about how you've seen the narratives, the problematic narratives that we sort of inherited and continue to see perpetuated over time, how they how they've influenced the mental health needs of of youth and how how the how they're understood and treated when they do seek out support.
John MacPhee: [00:10:54] Sure. Well, so there's there's many branches to this, right? There is one around that mental health is presented as scary. Right. And something to be worried about or mental illness or avoid it. And so I think that that's contributed to young people not wanting to seek help or not wanting to just speak up. And that is that is a fundamental problem. But then there are more nuanced problems, you know, so when a show in thirteen reasons why did this a little bit presents the adults as incompetent, you know, and you see examples of young people trying to get help, but it doesn't work. And so that can have a negative unintended impact because it just tells you, you know what, your school is not going to help you. Your adults are not going to help you. Your parents are not going to help you. And and what we want to do in the mental health field, of course, is encourage help seeking and then we'll see things like Homeland and Carrie. Right. And in so many ways, I think Homeland was terrific. You know, it showed this incredibly high performing person, you know, who was living with her with her mental health condition. Yet at times it suggested that she was better off when she wasn't on her meds. Or more creative or more apt to write. So even in the context of a of a show that I think did a lot of good, it was, you could argue, encouraging people to not necessarily always stick with their medications in a treatment regimen. So I just give those examples to say that there's a lot of layers to this in terms of how it can be done in helpful ways and in unhelpful ways.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:12:46] Those are really helpful case studies. I think it's really helpful to not only talk about the theory, but like really be grounded in some examples so that people can see exactly what you're talking about. So I really appreciate that. I'm curious in addition to how you experience watching those types of narratives on TV and what that means about their help seeking, how does it how does it manifest within themselves? Like how does it how does it sort of make them feel about themselves or see themselves?
John MacPhee: [00:13:19] Sure. So what these narratives can do and these stories can do is make someone feel like they are that they do have something to be embarrassed about or ashamed of and therefore make them want to conceal what they're experiencing and suffer in silence. So I think that that is a real challenge and harm that can happen. We know that from the emergence of the first mental illness symptoms which happen in half of people by the age of 14, right from that first emergence to the time somebody gets an accurate diagnosis and starts getting good care, it's eight to 10 years. And so if you think about that, right, these are the teen years, then Hollywood could have an enormous positive impact. Right. On telling these kinds of stories and showing people getting help. And they can also contribute to the to the stigma and the holding back. And in fact, I think over time have done that. Another important point in this also, which is whose stories are being told, and we talked earlier about the Annenberg study, which showed that there were very few studies, very few characters with mental health conditions being presented. Well, there's far fewer LGBTQ stories and BIPOC youth stories. They're really traditionally have have been absent. And it's really important that everyone can see themselves, you know, in the stories and in the media that they're absorbing.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:14:55] I'm wondering if there are any anecdotes that you can share of how how you've seen some of these narratives actually manifest in the work that you've done and in in your lived reality?
John MacPhee: [00:15:09] Yeah, well, to the positive. I met a young man in his 20s who told me the story about how he was really struggling. And actually he saw a public service announcement from MTV and Jed and our half of us campaign and could pinpoint the actual PSA that resulted in him going to his parents and telling me struggling and getting connected, connected care, rising. So, you know, it's just one small story, but we really know that that this can work.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:15:39] Having that case studies of the of the shows on the content is one thing, but then actually having stories like that to see that it's true that, you know, positive and negative, it's actually manifesting in in reality.
John MacPhee: [00:15:55] Yes. It's important, too, for people with lived experience to be the storytellers and to be contributing to the stories. And that's happening more and more. MTV and we partnered with them on this, just released a documentary called Each and Every Day, and that's a documentary of nine young adults with lived experience with mental health challenges and suicide attempts. And, you know, the documentary is really them telling their stories all the way through to getting help and really stories of recovery, but authentic presentations. It's not easy. You know, you've got to stick with it. It's going to be bumps in the road. And those are powerful stories. And as Hollywood goes forward, it's important to make sure that those with lived experience are are driving this work.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:16:47] After a quick break, we'll look to the future and see how these narratives are changing.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:16:52] So we've started to touch on what's going on now. I think thinking about the past and understanding where these narratives came from is important for us to start to both identify them so that we can deconstruct them. And so would love to explore what deconstructing those narratives looks like.
John MacPhee: [00:17:14] Yes. So I think one. Place to start is to think about a narrative or a paradigm where we are aligning mental health and physical health, right. We've done this work of separating them. They're not separate. It's really general health and wellness. And through that lens, when we think about physical health. For example, if you have a stomach pain, you might wait a couple of days. Right. And if it's still bothering you, you're going to start to say weight isn't on the right side to have appendicitis. Do I have an ulcer? You're going to go to a doctor. And with mental health, we need the same narrative. Right? You may be anxious. You may be down. You may have trouble getting out of bed. You know, something's wrong. You feel like you're in a funk. But you know what? When a week or two passes and it's not clearing right, it's time to start talking about it. Something's wrong. And so I think that that can be a very helpful comparison for all of us, you know, in roadmap in terms of how we should handle, you know, when when we're struggling with our mental health and go get help, just like we do for physical for physical challenges.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:18:24] So using that frame, what work has been done or is being done to shift those narratives?
John MacPhee: [00:18:32] Yeah, so one example is a new coalition led by Viacom of content creators, MTV Entertainment Group, Viacom, CBS, Walt Disney, Amazon Studios, NBC Universal, Sony, Endeavor, you know, have all come together into a coalition to work on mental health, storytelling, inclusion, representation in media going forward. I think that this is actually a very, very exciting and potentially powerful development that we're very excited about at the Jed Foundation. I'm excited to be a part of. We're seeing a lot more storytelling from people with lived experiences, you know, across the across the industry, across the mental health field. So it is it is changing. I'll give you another example as well. So a NBC is working on a new show called Expiration Date. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's it's stirring up a fair amount of controversy because it's about a man who's planning his own suicide for for an insurance policy to secure the money. Right. And there's a lot of discussion happening about this. And there's been a fair amount of criticism. And I'm not sure where the creators stand now on whether this show is going to be aired. But they're you know, they've talked about how they will work with the mental health field on this. This highlights a challenge, right? Because the premise is so difficult, there may be no safe way to tell. There may be no safe way to tell this story. Right. But I still think it's a promising story because the shows in development and the mental health field is engaged and it's being talked about. Right. And that's that's progress, you know, compared to where we were a few years ago. This sensitivity, I think, is really.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:20:27] Yeah, I, I remember in the in the guidelines, again, from the Annenberg Report, he sort of laid out a number of questions that creators should think about. I'm wondering in this coalition that you were talking about, are there guidelines? Are they creating some sort of like we have these best practices or we won't show this type of thing? Or how how is that being talked about?
John MacPhee: [00:20:52] Yes, yes. In fact, the the coalition is going to release detailed guidelines and recommendations for how to approach mental health storytelling in the media. And that will be a tremendous value, I think, to content creators everywhere. So it's a big part of the initiative.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:21:10] Hmm, yeah, that sounds really great. What are some of the new narratives that the guidelines are trying to introduce?
John MacPhee: [00:21:18] Sure. So new narratives include first, that this is coming, right. So if if mental health challenges are to be represented accurately, it should one out of five characters. Right. Would be experiencing something. So to really get the you know, the message out there that mental health conditions are common and something we all we all deal with. But another really important topic is the idea of let's imagine a teenager who's been diagnosed with a mental health condition. Right. They're likely to feel alone, scared, worried about the future, like they might be a burden to to their family and to others. So one narrative is to show people that have mental health conditions thriving. Right. As so many do going to their therapist. Right. Following their treatment regimen and really just thriving in their lives. And that is an absolutely critical narrative. Right. Another is this idea of help giving so much discussion around mental health comes from the perspective of saying if you are struggling, right, it's important for you to speak up and get help. That's brave. Right? And that's true. But it's also important for us to say that we all have a role to play. And if you're concerned about somebody else, if you have just that gut feeling that someone else is struggling, then speak up, say, hey, are you OK and be a help giver. Right. And so that's a narrative, this idea that we're a community in a village and, you know, we all need to take care of each other is a really powerful and important narrative because many times people who are struggling don't want to be a burden. So we have to send the message that, no, you're not a burden. Right. And that there are there are people around you who care and even people who don't know you who care. And it's important to show to show that.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:23:13] Yeah, yeah. That's a really important point. I think the individualistic approach to mental health that it's our own personal issue or problem is a narrative that I have I have definitely noticed. I mean, I think of an experience that I had, you know, I broke my wrist and everybody was like, oh, how can I help you? Let me bring you something. I'll take this as well. I was in grad school. Take notes for you in class, know, just so wanting to be able to do something. And a little later that year, I, I realized that I was experiencing clinical depression and. With the same group of people said, you know, said that same thing, except for this time, it was like, oh, you know what? How are you getting help? You know, are you going to get help? Do you go see a therapist? Like it was a much more it was less engaged. It was a little bit more like this is not something that I know how to engage in. And I think there's an interesting like. The individual agency that's put on people in in seeking mental health, as opposed to sort of the more communal experience of physical ailments often is often something that I've noticed.
John MacPhee: [00:24:37] Yes. And another another narrative that needs to be corrected. It's very important now is this idea that people with mental illness are not violent, you know, and really, if anything, they represent a threat to themselves, but but not to others. And just given the discourse around guns and gun violence and, you know, this quick move by many to blame those with mental illness, I think it's really important that that narrative be be corrected and that story be told in a correct and authentic way.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:25:08] Yeah, it's quite remarkable. I think the report said something like 47% of characters that are depicted. Yeah. It's just it's so I mean, that brings up an interesting question around storytelling and the need for and maybe it's a manufactured need for sensationalism or for, you know, clean endings, which oftentimes, you know, there there is no true ending. We continue to work through these things and sort of the the dissonance between the lived reality of something like experiencing a mental health condition and then needing to complete a storyline or to have something sensational. I'm curious your thoughts on that.
John MacPhee: [00:25:51] Yes, I think there is a tension between authentic real stories and wanting to tell a sensational or gripping, gripping story. I think that there is some tension there and also wanting to tie an ending in a nice in a nice bow. Right. As it relates to mental health and ongoing chronic mental health conditions, I think that the story arc can be that people are thriving because they've gotten care. But there are bumps in the road and there are ups and downs and that's fine. You know, people are living really great, you know, rewarding lives. So it doesn't have to be told in authentic way. Right. It's like, you know, Silver Linings Playbook, you know, the concept there is that it was those two characters. You know, it's not that they're going to go happily ever after. We don't know. But there's a silver lining that they've got a really good or really good chance at it. So I think that's kind of the the needle that needs to be threaded.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:26:51] You know, you shared some of the things that you are seeing that you're excited about in terms of the changes we're seeing in narrative's, and I'm wondering if there are things that you're worried about or what you're seeing that's flagging for you is like we should we should be mindful of those things.
John MacPhee: [00:27:08] Well, one is to make sure that the stories told are inclusive in many stories are told. So you can really see themselves, you know, no matter who they are, their story, how they identify in the stories. There's a lot of improvement that has to happen on that front. Also, I just think it's there's so many content creators that, you know, I think it will be a while before we can feel totally comfortable that all stories are, you know, told in a in a way that is promoting mental health and not potentially fostering some of these negative and false narratives. Right. So it's just it's going to it's going to take a while. But that's why I'm excited about the coalition and so many media partners coming together to participate in it.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:27:55] Yeah, that is that is really exciting. I'm curious how they're how they're working together, how they're making decisions, if that's something that you can talk about.
John MacPhee: [00:28:05] Well, it just started, right. So I don't know all of those answers. But I it is a group that's working closely together as a as a coalition and to align around guiding principles around how to include and how to represent mental health in media and in storytelling. What does that look like? What are the best practices? So there'll be a sense of uniformity and alignment around what that looks like. And it will include the principles really that we're we're talking about here, you know, so it will, I believe, make it make a tremendous difference and do a lot of good.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:28:41] That's that's really exciting. It's always nice to hear one of the things in the talking points from the Mental Health Action Day was around the incredible work that's been done in so many other issue areas and how slow the mental health discourse has been to catch up. And so this is an exciting opportunity to start to see that shift.
John MacPhee: [00:29:08] It is, yes. Yeah. So so we're really we're really excited about it. You know, it's key that all of us, though, whether we're content creators or not, drop our stigma and check our stigma and talk about what we're experiencing and check in with other people on their emotional health. I mean, really, I think what we're talking about is that Hollywood can help catalyze or or help, you know, sort of further a movement here. But the movement is going to take everybody.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:29:38] Yes. Yeah, well, I think it's interesting. The movement has the individual approach of helping to dismantle stigma, but also. We need the second part of it, which are the structures in place, which are the more systemic structures that once you are able to say, yeah, I would like to find support and help, that their structure is there to actually do that.
John MacPhee: [00:30:07] Yes, I couldn't agree more. That is that is essentially what the Jed Foundation does. That's our that's the heart of our work. We work with schools and, you know, look at all of their policies, programs and systems around mental health. And how are they creating a culture of caring, noticing students who are struggling get them to mental health care. So you're absolutely right that, you know, that is that is critical. And fortunately, also the American rescue plan that was passed does have a fair amount of money in it for mental health supports, for schools to implement mental health support. So this is an encouraging time, I believe, if we can take advantage of it. covid itself is a silver lining because covid showed us that we all can struggle with our mental health. We can all be stressed out. And so that gives us permission maybe where it didn't exist before. There was reluctance before to to talk about our mental health and our mental well-being and, you know, openly just show that we all share it and we're all.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:31:10] Struggling. Yeah, I would love for you to talk a little bit more about about the Jed Foundation and what you do.
John MacPhee: [00:31:18] Yeah. So DJed is a charity that focuses on protecting emotional health and preventing suicide for 13 to 30 year olds. We educate teens and young adults and the people around them about mental health and including campaigns like sees the awkward, which is a big national campaign, encouraging people to start conversations with each other about mental health, especially when you're worried about somebody else. And then but really, the heart of our work is we work with high schools, colleges and universities and other community organizations to help them build mental health safety nets for their students that use their members. Right. So creating a culture of caring, a sense of belonging and connectedness, but also the hard interventions where, you know, how do you notice if somebody is struggling and how you get them to mental health care? You know, what does that look like? So we are what you would call a technical assistance organization that really works very, very deeply with schools because every school should have a plan for how it's supporting student mental health. And the Jed Foundation helps schools create those plans and implement them.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:32:23] Oh, that's really amazing. I'm curious in working with the with the coalition, the Viacom Coalition, how you're able to share best practices, I mean, things like what you were saying, helping people to understand how to notice are things that would be amazing to integrate subtly in stories and scripts. And so how how that's going or how that works?
John MacPhee: [00:32:49] Yeah, very well. In fact, the Jed Foundation and Viacom through MTV have had a partnership for like 15 years on a campaign and health campaign called Half of US. So we've worked together for a long time. And the Viacom team is is really committed to to mental health. And so we we share these lessons and these learnings and they they invite us to and ask us to all the time. So it's a pretty effective relationship. And now we're just so excited that, you know, this this coalition has been created. So, so many great organizations are coming to the table in organizations that have just enormous wherewithal and potential to to rewrite the tropes and narratives around mental health.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:33:36] That's really exciting. So how can listeners today take what they've learned and help themselves to identify and deconstruct the narratives that they're seeing?
John MacPhee: [00:33:52] Yeah, yeah. So first, as I would check your own stigma, I mean, really reflect on how do you think about mental health, mental illness and do you have feelings that hold you back from talking about it or that maybe move you into some unfair judgments? Check that right. Learn about it. You can come to jedfoundation.org and really learn about that. But that's where I'd start. And then think about how you modeling that. And one thing I'll direct this comment to really gets to everybody, but maybe a little bit more to people that are a little bit older. And to say that, you know, messaging to teens and young adults about mental health often says to them, you know, go to someone who cares about you. Go to an adult who you trust and and open up. It doesn't have to be your parents if you're not comfortable, etc.. So this idea of mentorship and having places to go is critical. So I think we can all ask ourselves, are we a safe harbor or a trusted other for the people in our lives, especially the young people in our lives? And if you think you are, that's wonderful. But those people know it, right? So actually, tell them sit with them and tell them that, you know, you want them to know that you'll be a judge, mentor, a nonjudgmental, safe place, you know, to have these conversations because, you know, life is hard and that there's going to be ups and downs. And I think that that kind of thing is really it's really important to critical and take advantage of covid and take advantage of these horrible examples of racial injustice and violence that are causing so much distress, because it gives us, I think, permission or an easy door to open to these kinds of conversations with objects in our lives.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:35:42] Yeah, oh, that's such a great point, I'm wondering, is there anything that we haven't covered that you would like to make sure you share today?
John MacPhee: [00:35:52] I would just say is part of that last question also that if you're affiliated with schools or organizations. Find out if they have a plan for how they supporting mental health. They should and the foundation can help can help them and help you have them get that kind of a plan in place, especially as we're starting to come out of covid. I think it's important for us to realize, too, that, you know, there are a number of people who who thrived actually in in the isolation. There are a number of students who don't feel safe at schools. They were bullied and, you know, just didn't feel safe and actually performed better or students that didn't see themselves represented in their schools and felt better. And they're among their family and friends. So we shouldn't just assume that everyone is going to be OK or even happy about sort of reemerging. It's going to be a difficult transition. And so schools need to be ready for that. And we all need to be understanding and patient around that caring.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:36:51] I'm really glad you said that I might not be in school, but I'm definitely among those people that's like I actually really have been enjoying my little isolation bubble. I actually I do have one follow up question to that, which is I saw the Jed Foundation put out a response to Thirteen Reasons Why, which I know brought up a lot of controversy. And I'm curious, do you also work with schools and how to respond to different pieces of media that come out that are both positive and negative and how how to make sure that people who are seeing that especially young people, have the resources to sort of understand that we do.
John MacPhee: [00:37:31] We do. Now, there's so much media that comes out that, you know, we're selective about when we might, you know, discuss a particular piece of media as opposed to more generally the importance of having conversations, you know, to to tell the right narratives and and the right stories. In the case of Thirteen Reasons Why its viewership was so, so wide that we felt it was important to do that. I will say that I believe that Thirteen Reasons Why likely helped many people, and it created many conversations between teens and their families that were quite helpful. But there were reasons that we were worried about vulnerable youth, you know, being put it put at risk by some of the some of the content. Right. And so that also is a good example of how complicated this is, because it's entirely possible for a piece of content or media to both do good and some harm at the same time.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:38:29] Make sense. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time and your patience as we struggled through these Internet difficulties. But I really appreciate discussing this really important topic with you and the meaningful work that you're doing at the Jed Foundation.
Jenn Gottesfeld: [00:38:47] If you or someone you know is experiencing a mental health emergency or needs help immediately, please call 911 one. Or if that doesn't feel safe for you, you can also text START to 741- 741 or call 1-800-273-TALK for additional support and resources, please visit jedfoundation.org or you can find all of their information on our substack page, theotherstory.subsack.com, along with all the resources for mental health action day and resources for narrative change practitioners about writing about youth mental health. Thanks so much for listening to the other story and this special series for Mental Health Awareness Month. We'll see you soon and take good care.